Religion, who, what and how do you believe/practice

[pajarito 0]

It seems like the biggest hang-up (granted, I only skimmed what you posted) was the genealogy of Jesus and the fact that he had no true biological father. The following web page addresses this.

http://www.carm.org/questions/2geneologies.htm

The next two address fulfilled prophesy.

http://www.bible.com/jesus/prophecies.html

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-r004.html

By the way, you never really make clear as to what your personal stance is concerning this. Earlier you tried to debunk the 10 Commandments. Now, you're trying to debunk Jesus as the Messiah and Son of God. I'm just wondering if you would, as you made clear with your statement about the 10 Commandments,

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"I believe they've changed over the years.

I also believe they're not specific enough to be a true moral code. They're pretty much a list of what not to do."

what exactly do you believe concerning Jesus?

[wmw999 2,560]

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what exactly do you believe concerning Jesus?

Why do you need to know?

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[pajarito 0]

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what exactly do you believe concerning Jesus?

Why do you need to know?

Wendy W.

Just curious. This is a discussion board. By the way, I was asking her. She doesn't have to answer. I'm not afraid to make crystal clear what I think. I personally think if you're going to argue a side very strongly, then you aught to lay all the cards on the table and be up front with everyone.

[pajarito 0]

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what exactly do you believe concerning Jesus?

Why do you need to know?

Wendy W.

Why did that light a flame under you and draw such a defensive response? People ask what you believe concerning a variety of topics here. It's Speaker's Corner. This topic just happens to include Jesus.

[Nightingale 0]

my religious beliefs are my own concern.

by putting your own on the table, you opened them up to debate. Personally, it doesn't matter to me what you believe, only that you have truly examined it. I fully support anyone's right to believe what they wish, but there's a difference between true faith and blind faith, and I'm trying to figure out where you are on that spectrum.

[pajarito 0]

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my religious beliefs are my own concern.

by putting your own on the table, you opened them up to debate. Personally, it doesn't matter to me what you believe, only that you have truly examined it. I fully support anyone's right to believe what they wish, but there's a difference between true faith and blind faith, and I'm trying to figure out where you are on that spectrum.

I get the feeling that you're just sharp-shooting whether you believe what you're spouting or not. You'll make a good lawyer. I only post stuff that I agree with. Are you Jewish (religious not ethnic)? I guess that's none of my business either. By the way, there's emotional faith (warm fuzzy feeling in the airplane) and intellectual faith (can quote 300 Bible verses). The only kind that matters in the end is "saving faith" (true belief).

[Nightingale 0]

I haven't "spouted" anything at all, or said anything about what I personally believe. All I've done is challenge your point of view, by bringing up the arguments of the people who were waiting around for the messiah in the first place. If you can refute my arguments...I get to learn something new. If not, maybe you get to learn something new. Either way, we both benefit.

And no, I'm not Jewish, but one of my close friends is. She's the one that pointed me to the websites I quoted when I called her and asked what the Jewish criteria for the messiah actually was, and why Jesus did or did not fit.

[pajarito 0]

Ok....I still say you'll make a good lawyer. I admit that I wouldn't. Good luck with that.

[Nightingale 0]

hehe. thanks.

I believe that we, as people, must examine not only our own point of view, but the points of view of those who don't think as we do. That way, we gain the opportunity to re-examine our own position, possibly re-evaluate, and at the very least, the ability to strengthen our own position by being able to understand and refute the oppositional stance.

I've learned this from years of political debates with my father. I frustrate him to no end, because, since I've examined both sides of the issues, I already know what his argument is going to be, and have my rebuttal prepared. He, on the other hand, does not, and it amuses me endlessly to watch him throw up his hands and declare "this discussion is over." and walk out of the room while my mother and I make "victory" signs to each other. Its a family joke that neither I or my father should bother voting, since we typically completely cancel each other out.

[pajarito 0]

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hehe. thanks.

I believe that we, as people, must examine not only our own point of view, but the points of view of those who don't think as we do. That way, we gain the opportunity to re-examine our own position, possibly re-evaluate, and at the very least, the ability to strengthen our own position by being able to understand and refute the oppositional stance.

I've learned this from years of political debates with my father. I frustrate him to no end, because, since I've examined both sides of the issues, I already know what his argument is going to be, and have my rebuttal prepared. He, on the other hand, does not, and it amuses me endlessly to watch him throw up his hands and declare "this discussion is over." and walk out of the room while my mother and I make "victory" signs to each other. Its a family joke that neither I or my father should bother voting, since we typically completely cancel each other out.

I fully support examination of your beliefs. I think that your belief system better be able to be broken down and put back together again or it's not worth your time. Do you ever come to any conclusions from your critique or is it just the thrill of the debate?

[Nightingale 0]

mainly for the thrill of the debate...and the moments where I happen to learn something new.

I'm always changing and re-evaluating my worldview, so sure, sometimes I draw different conclusions than the ones I started with based on the debate. If you don't approach things with an open mind, what's the point?

[pajarito 0]

Fair enough...

However, it kind of sounds kind of like floating under a round parachute, like I used to do in the military, at the mercy of the wind as opposed to flying my Sabre into the wind (the right direction) on final approach toward the target "X" on the DZ. You're still at the mercy of the wind but there's a whole lot more control. That is, if the argument is just to argue, never really reach a conclusion, or if you do, it is easily swayed in another direction. What's the point? I agree that one needs to have an open mind and see all sides. I think, however, that one must also be able to make a decision and take a stand. I believe there are certain truths, rights and wrongs in this world and this is one of them. If you don't, I fully respect your position. You're a very good debater! Better than your Dad anyway.

[Nightingale 0]

I've taken a stand on a lot of things in this forum.

When I do change my mind, its usually because someone else has presented some damn good evidence that I didn't know about. Most of the time, debates here don't change my mind, because the evidence presented is all stuff I've researched before on my own, and have already made up my mind on it. When I learn something new, I re-evaluate, and decide whether or not I still feel my former position was correct. The thing is... that doesn't happen very often, because I like to do my research BEFORE I make up my mind, not after.

[pajarito 0]

Is that what you think I've done? Made up my mind before doing any research?

On another note, because of what I said before, I almost respect an Atheist more than an Agnostic because at least they will make up their minds, make a choice, and take a stand.

[Nightingale 0]

I didn't make any comment as to what you've done. I have no idea how much research you've done into your beliefs. I was just saying what I've done, personally.

I find too many people in general simply follow what their parents, teachers or pastor tells them, without bothering to explore any deeper, and when someone does ask them a question, they have no idea how to respond.

You're fun to debate, because a lot of times you've got reasearch to back up what you say. Its no fun arguing with someone who says "because God said so and the Bible said so so there!" and then they can't even tell you what the Bible verse is that they're talking about.

[pajarito 0]

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You're fun to debate, because a lot of times you've got reasearch to back up what you say. Its no fun arguing with someone who says "because God said so and the Bible said so so there!" and then they can't even tell you what the Bible verse is that they're talking about.

That never got very far with me either.

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"because God said so and the Bible said so so there!"

Like I've said before, I didn't grow up in a Christian home, didn't have much of a Christian influence aside from my Granddad before he died, I very rarely went to church at all, and didn't make a decision until I was 27 and I'm now 35.

[pajarito 0]

Prior to that, I guess I would have probably considered myself an atheist, if I thought about it much.

That is, until I found out that God doesn't believe in atheists.

[Nightingale 0]

I think its nice that you had the opportunity to choose for yourself, rather than having someone else choose for you when you were little.

I know, should I ever have kids, that I'll be under a lot of pressure from my family to baptize them as babies.

I won't do it. I wouldn't initiate my children into ANY religion, mine or anyone else's, without their consent and full knowledge and understanding of what's happening. Babies aren't capable of that.

I feel that religion is a commitment that someone has to make for themselves, as an adult, with a full understanding of what they're agreeing to. Its not a promise anyone can make for someone else

if they decide that its what they want, I'd support them 100%, after making sure they'd thought things over.

[pajarito 0]

Going out to eat. Later!

[wmw999 2,560]

The one thing to think about is that children who are raised without any religion often don't even consider it to be an option (well, just as children who are raised strongly within a religion aren't shown any other options).

In order to really give them some picture, you have to therefore be willing to expose them to the good as well as the bad, and as well as its absence.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Nightingale 0]

I'm not saying I wouldn't expose them to it. I just won't make them commit to it. They can do that for themselves, if they wish.

[billvon 3,090]

>I won't do it. I wouldn't initiate my children into ANY religion, mine or
>anyone else's, without their consent and full knowledge and understanding
>of what's happening. Babies aren't capable of that.

Agreed, but they are also incapable of deciding if they want an MMR vaccine, if they want to take the (tiny) risk of a bad reaction to get the benefit of the shot. I'm going to decide that for my kids; there are a lot of things that they don't get to decide on until they're old enough to decide it.

I'm going to raise my kids within the church, and then, when they're old enough, let them make their own decisions as to what they want to believe. To me, the primary benefit of religion is the moral framework and the community that surrounds the church, and that's something that's good for kids to have (I think.) It's a lot easier to leave a parish than enter it starting from scratch.

[Nightingale 0]

I think there's a difference between just taking kids to church, and baptizing them. When you baptize someone, you're initiating them into something they may or may not want. I would teach them what religion is about, and let them make the baptizm decision for themselves, when they're old enough.

MMR...that's scary stuff. I think I'd choose the three separate shots, just to play it safe.

[billvon 3,090]

> I think there's a difference between just taking kids to church, and baptizing them.

I think that, when the time comes to make their own decision, whether they are baptized or not won't matter much to them.

[Nightingale 0]

I would agree that it wouldn't matter too much to them, but I don't want to deny them the chance to make a religious commitment for themselves, rather than having their parents do it for them.

I've seen baptisms of adults, and they seem to actually mean something to the participants.