They're calling it Involuntary Recall...

[stuffit 0]

What are you going to say when we DON'T go to war with North Korea? (if they continue with their current attitude)

[Ron 10]

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That's pretty damn low, Ron. I've never once bashed anyone that serves in the military

You called me a lemming for being willing to defend the country.

That shows you have no Honor or sense of Duty.

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That's pretty damn low, Ron. I've never once bashed anyone that serves in the military

Most who run to Canada are frankly just cowards...they claim its cause they don't agree with the policies since saying "I'm a coward" is uncool.

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By the way, THAT IS what the founding of this country was all about. That idea was lost somewhere.

And that right was bought with BLOOD something you seem to have forgotten.

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If people like you founded this country, you would have answered the call to arms from King George to defend the empire. In case you missed that part of history class, the founders of this country were traitors who defied their government.

Don't you have a noon tea party to get to?

I am quite aware of the founding of this country...And I severed to protect it...unlike you who just bitches about it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[stuffit 0]

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SH was a bad man that killed his own people. His sons killed for sport.

That type of shit happens everywhere in the world. GWB only chooses to get involved when there is oil at stake.

[markd_nscr986 0]

***Oh so if you don't agree with what the coutry asks of you its OK to dodge the draft and run?


Well......we do have a presidential precedent for just that do we not....the only Rhodes scholar that smoked and never inhaled!!!!

Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004

[Ron 10]

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It's offensive to people to tell them that they have no sense of honor, duty, or integrity because they either don't agree with the current administration, or are unwilling or unable(!) to join the military to support something they don't support.

Its offensive to call people who DID join the service "Lemmings" for being willing to do WHAT MY COUNTRY ASKS OF ME.

Honor is doing what you need to do even if you don't want to.

Duty is doing what you are asked to do.

Integrity is doing it even if no one is watching.

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I'd assume you'd apply that same label to me

You didn't call those that will serve if called "Lemmings".

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Luv2Fall 0]

"Lemmings" I guess a good bye hug from you is out of the question, huh?

[PhillyKev 0]

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You called me a lemming for being willing to defend the country.

That shows you have no Honor or sense of Duty.

No, actually it just shows that I'm petty, since it was a jab back at you for accusing me of having no honor.

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Most who run to Canada are frankly just cowards...they claim its cause they don't agree with the policies since saying "I'm a coward" is uncool.

What are you basing that on besides your biased opinion? That's not meant as a bash on you, but did you read a study somewhere or have you talked to a lot of ex-pats? Honestly, you're probably right in one way though. I'd think that the majority of people who go to war are afraid of dying. When the cause is just, if you're honorable, you go anyway. If it's not, and you go anyway, then yes, you're a lemming risking your life for no good reason.

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And that right was bought with BLOOD something you seem to have forgotten.

What right are you talking about?

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I am quite aware of the founding of this country...And I severed to protect it...unlike you who just bitches about it.

Actually, I frequently say a lot of good things about this country. I'm proud to live here, and if faced with an eminent threat, would do everything I could to protect it. Let me know when that comes along, because there sure as hell isn't one emanating from Iraq.

[wmw999 2,550]

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Honor is doing what you need to do even if you don't want to.
Duty is doing what you are asked to do.
Integrity is doing it even if no one is watching.

And which of those is doing something that you think is morally wrong when you don't have to? Or, for that matter, when you do?

I agree that "lemmings" is not kind. But that comment wasn't what you were targeting in your other post.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Ron 10]

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I'd think that the majority of people who go to war are afraid of dying. When the cause is just, if you're honorable, you go anyway. If it's not, and you go anyway, then yes, you're a lemming risking your life for no good reason.

See, you don't understand Honor at all. Honor is not dependant on the cause...If your nation calls you answer the call. You clearly would not.

The spineless call those with honor "lemmings"

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[PhillyKev 0]

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You didn't call those that will serve if called "Lemmings".

Neither did I. I said someone who blindly does what they are told to do without considering the ramifications is a lemming.

Those who are called and believe the cause is just, even if I don't,are not lemmings. Someone who doesn't care and just blindly does what they are told, are.

There's a big difference there and I hope that you can see it.

[PhillyKev 0]

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See, you don't understand Honor at all. Honor is not dependant on the cause...If your nation calls you answer the call.

So those American colonists who defied the King's order weren't honorable? Is that what you are saying, Ron?

Those Iraqi's who didn't take up arms against the American invaders aren't honorable?

Those Cuban exiles who attempted to overthrow Castro in the Bay of Pigs weren't honorable?

By your definition, the most honorable group of people out there are Palestinian suicide bombers. After all, they are making the ultimate sacrifice for their nation.

Or did you mean when people blindly follow those who are on YOUR side are honorable? Is that what you really meant to say?

[stuffit 0]

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I'd think that the majority of people who go to war are afraid of dying. When the cause is just, if you're honorable, you go anyway. If it's not, and you go anyway, then yes, you're a lemming risking your life for no good reason.

See, you don't understand Honor at all. Honor is not dependant on the cause...If your nation calls you answer the call. You clearly would not.

The spineless call those with honor "lemmings"

Come on bud. You have watched Rambo too many times.

[Ron 10]

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By your definition, the most honorable group of people out there are Palestinian suicide bombers. After all, they are making the ultimate sacrifice for their nation.

They are VERY honorable, as were the Kamakazi Pilots of WW2, And the terroists of 9/11.

I may not AGREE with them, but they had honor.

Of course you would not understand.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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Come on bud. You have watched Rambo too many times.

And you clearly have not seen it enough.

You seem to only care fo your selfish interests.

It's clear you will not understand.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[stuffit 0]

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By your definition, the most honorable group of people out there are Palestinian suicide bombers. After all, they are making the ultimate sacrifice for their nation.

They are VERY honorable, as were the Kamakazi Pilots of WW2, And the terroists of 9/11.

I may not AGREE with them, but they had honor.

Of course you would not understand.

There is no honor in killing innocent people.

[PhillyKev 0]

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They are VERY honorable, as were the Kamakazi Pilots of WW2, And the terroists of 9/11.

I may not AGREE with them, but they had honor.

Of course you would not understand.

No, I understand perfectly. And if that's the case, then I appologize for reacting the way I did when you said I have no honor. Based on your perception of it, I'm glad I don't have any.

What about my other examples? You're agreeing that they had no honor?

[Ron 10]

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There is no honor in killing innocent people.

See now you have to define "innocent"

According to Sun Tzu the friend of my enemy is my enemy...And also anyone that supports my enemy is my enemy.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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I'm glad I don't have any

We finally agree you have no honor.

I'm done with this...continue to bash those who are willing to protect your right to bitch.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[PhillyKev 0]

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We finally agree you have no honor.

Based on your definition I'll take that as a complement.

And to show you how gracious I am, I'll compliment you back.

You're as honorable as a terrorist.

[billvon 3,080]

>We finally agree you have no honor.

OK, Ron, I warned you once already about name-calling. This is the last warning. Debate the idea; do not attack the person. (And no, I don't care if you really, honestly, truly think he has no honor, or if he admits it, or he's really a communist. You cannot call people names even if you think they are true.)

[billvon 3,080]

>You're as honorable as a terrorist.

And that goes for you too! Cut it out!

[stuffit 0]

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There is no honor in killing innocent people.

See now you have to define "innocent"

According to Sun Tzu the friend of my enemy is my enemy...And also anyone that supports my enemy is my enemy.

I am sure that not everyone in the World trade center was a supporter of GWB.

I would say that innocent is anyone besides the slimy politicians making decisions.

[freeflydrew 0]

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I would say that innocent is anyone besides the slimy politicians making decisions.

I think that victim may be more appropriate

[Ron 10]

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I am sure that not everyone in the World trade center was a supporter of GWB.

The WTC attacks were NOT attacks on GWB..They were planned WAY before GWB took office, and a prior attack happend during Clintons term.

It was an attack on America for several things.

From OBL's letter to America:

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As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:
(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.
a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon.

(c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

(f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

(2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!

(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.

(b)The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

(f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs.

The American Government and press still refuses to answer the question:
Why did they attack us in New York and Washington?
If Sharon is a man of peace in the eyes of Bush, then we are also men of peace!!! America does not understand the language of manners and principles, so we are addressing it using the language it understands.

(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?
(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

(2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.

They attacked us for several reasons. None were GWB.

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I would say that innocent is anyone besides the slimy politicians making decisions.

Then the Americans that tourtured the Iraqi's in prison are innocent?

Murderers on death row are innocent?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[LouDiamond 1]

This really isn't "news" to anybody who has served and took the time to read the Paperwork they signed when they voluntarily joined the Military. If you get out before you do 8 you know that you are still contractually obligated to being recalled on to active duty if the Gov't deems it. No ifs ands or buts about it, you agreed to serve, you signed the papers. You get a post card in the mail from Uncle Sam then shut the fuck up move out and draw fire.

It has nothing to do with nor is it even remotely comparable to the draft. It IS about following through with what you voluntarily agreed to do and subsequentially entered into a legal contract when you signed those papers. Now, those people who refuse to report after getting recalled..., IMO they are oxygen thieves and a waste of stretched skin. What they are telling me is that their word is worthless and they only do things when it is convienient to them. I can remember a time when as a country people were shot for such behavior but that all ended when we started forgiving people and removing the burden of responsibility for ones actions....but that is best saved for another thread. Most people who are called back do indeed return to serve their country and fullfill their word. I believe the actually number that don't return is very low.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
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