They're calling it Involuntary Recall...

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Do you really want to go fight and kill people for someone like Bush?

Muslim extremists who blow up innocent people, behead civilians on t.v., hijack airliners and steer them into buildings after cutting the throats of the crews, swear to destroy America and all it stands for?

Kill them?

Hmmm. Might not be so bad. Maybe Bush is right about it.

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[newsstand 0]

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I want the country to give me a mansion. What? That's unreasonable and doesn't serve the public good? Ok then. Same thing goes for asking people to fight in Iraq.

I guess you support all the draft dodgers from all wars?

I guess you have never served...

Guess what? No one wants to fight. But some DO since they have HONOR...Its not my fault you have none

I served. Five years active duty and five years reserve. Enlisted in 1976 when the military was still not very popular. Got out of the reserves after the Gulf War was over because I disagreed with what my government did. I did not get sent to the theater but would have gone had I been.

I have advised my 19 year old son to keep his passport handy and plan on what country he would go to if he were to be drafted for this conflict.

Disagreeing with the government, protesting the government and even disobeying the government is exactly what this country is about. Without that we might still be fighting in south-east Asia.

Honor is not defined as blindly following your government. The best definition for this purpose would be "Principled uprightness of character; personal integrity." One can meet this definition and still dodge the draft as long as one is consistent in there actions.

"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

[diablopilot 2]

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It's pretty fucked up, and if I had ever enlisted in the military and served my time (sounds a lot like prison) I would be pretty freakin pissed off.

Each and every one of them signed a contract and knew what they were getting into.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

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That's OK. I won't be bothering to attend anyway if they do reinstate it. I suggest everybody else does likewise.

Well we all know you wouldn't have to due to your being a native of the quick witted dry humor, but do you really think people should breadk their promisis, and go back on their word, just because they feel like it?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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I think that war should be the absolute last resort in resolving problems, and I don't think it was used as the absolute last resort in Iraq. It's not a tool to administer a lesson for not following some of the rules. Its purpose is to kill a lot of people, many of them innocent. That is not noble. It might be necessary, but it's not noble.

Wendy W.

It is not the purpose of war to simply kill a lot of people, nor is it the purpose of war to kill innocents.

The purpose of war is to establish YOUR way over your ENEMY'S way. If you can do this without having to kill many of them, you've still won the war, and you will withdraw your own troops from harm's way, and you will not seek to just kill more of your enemy's people for the hell of it. You misstate the facts.

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[billvon 3,085]

>Each and every one of them signed a contract and knew what they were getting into.

No argument there. But imagine that you bought $2800 worth of tunnel time that had to be used in 90 days (which is their standard team deal) and you signed something stating that I understand there may be schedule problems etc that make it tough to use all the time in 90 days. Then they announce they're going to shut down for motor replacements for twelve weeks and you have to use all that time by Friday, and there are only a few slots left. I imagine you'd be pretty pissed off, even if you knew (from reading the agreement) that it could happen.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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SH was a bad man that killed his own people. His sons killed for sport.

That type of shit happens everywhere in the world. GWB only chooses to get involved when there is oil at stake.

So the purpose of this "war for oil" was to drive the price from $1.19 to $2.35? Some "war for oil."

Kinda takes the wind out of the sails of your argument, don't it?

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[diablopilot 2]

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I imagine you'd be pretty pissed off, even if you knew (from reading the agreement) that it could happen.

Sure I'd be pissed. But I wouldn't have a leg to stand on in an argument, nor would I try to fight it. I agreed to something, and I'll stick to it. That's the honor Ron speaks of. When I get on a plane at Perris on a weather day and we go up to 13K but have to decend to 3k before we can exit do I bitch about paying $20 for a hp and pop? Nope. Same thing here.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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By your definition, the most honorable group of people out there are Palestinian suicide bombers. After all, they are making the ultimate sacrifice for their nation.

They are VERY honorable, as were the Kamakazi Pilots of WW2, And the terroists of 9/11.

I may not AGREE with them, but they had honor.

Of course you would not understand.

There is no honor in killing innocent people.

I typically side with Ron, but I agree with this statement.
I typically side with Ron, but I see the point that we as Americans DO have a duty and responsibility to oppose our government when it is doing wrong.

I have not decided whether we are truly doing wrong or not at this point. I think it is noble and honorable to free a foreign people from a despotic ruler, even if it costs our lives. The debate arises from "why do we do this in one place, but not in the loads of others where there are also despotic rulers?"

It's a tough question.

For the record, I never served, because I couldn't stomach the idea of taking orders from people I was bound to think were morons, just because they had a rank over me. I wanted a more self-determined life.

To each his own.

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[PhillyKev 0]

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So the purpose of this "war for oil" was to drive the price from $1.19 to $2.35? Some "war for oil."

Kinda takes the wind out of the sails of your argument, don't it?

Only if you think it was an altruistic motive to bring down prices at the pumps for consumers. Take a look at oil futures, oil company stocks, and their profit forecasts.

I don't agree that it was a war for oil. The fact that oil exist over there is the primary reason we give a crap about that corner of the world, but that's not what we went to war over. But the price at the pump does not effectively rebut that argument.

[PhillyKev 0]

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Sure I'd be pissed. But I wouldn't have a leg to stand on in an argument, nor would I try to fight it. I agreed to something, and I'll stick to it. That's the honor Ron speaks of.

And I agree that if you enlisted, and you still have an obligation, that you are honor bound to go. All of my previous comments were in regard to an involuntary draft.

[Nightingale 0]

this "being called on to defend our country" thing seems odd...

defend us from IRAQ??? They never attacked us. How is that "defending ourselves"???


If someone attacked us, and for some reason I got drafted, heck yeah, I'd go. But I'm not going to go help kill people who haven't hurt us.

[kelpdiver 2]

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This really isn't "news" to anybody who has served and took the time to read the Paperwork they signed when they voluntarily joined the Military. If you get out before you do 8 you know that you are still contractually obligated to being recalled on to active duty if the Gov't deems it. No ifs ands or buts about it, you agreed to serve, you signed the papers. You get a post card in the mail from Uncle Sam then shut the fuck up move out and draw fire.

Thanks for the clarification. I thought it was a term in the neighborhood of 3 years and then you could reupp, or go back to the civilian world. 5 year requirement for those who wanted to go to college on the Army's dime.

Historically, how often has this recall been done? I remember back in 1991 when many Reservists were shocked to find out that their commitment actually involved going to war, and it wasn't just a weekend game for a small pension. Many suddenly wanted to back out.

I feel more for those called up now - they did their time, but I agree that a contract is a contract. Was the 8 year bit made very clear, or was that detail brushed over?

Ron - Saddam has been out of power for quite a long time already. At this point, the line between mercenaries and what we're underpaying our soldiers to do is thinner than I'd like. And if anyone else on the world wants to fuck with us, we're stretched too thin to do much about it.

[Gawain 0]

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this "being called on to defend our country" thing seems odd...

defend us from IRAQ??? They never attacked us. How is that "defending ourselves"???

Does a planned, and failed attempt to assassinate a former President count?

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Ron 10]

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Sure I'd be pissed. But I wouldn't have a leg to stand on in an argument, nor would I try to fight it. I agreed to something, and I'll stick to it. That's the honor Ron speaks of. When I get on a plane at Perris on a weather day and we go up to 13K but have to decend to 3k before we can exit do I bitch about paying $20 for a hp and pop? Nope. Same thing here.

Ladies and Gentelman...we have a winner....

You signed up for eight and you knew it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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They are VERY honorable, as were the Kamakazi Pilots of WW2, And the terroists of 9/11.

I may not AGREE with them, but they had honor.

Of course you would not understand.

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There is no honor in killing innocent people.

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I typically side with Ron, but I agree with this statement.
I typically side with Ron, but I see the point that we as Americans DO have a duty and responsibility to oppose our government when it is doing wrong.

But do you understand in their eyes WE are enablers that allow their people to be killed...Therfore we are not innocent.

Therefore they are justified in attacking us....Now I don't AGREE...However I do UNDERSTAND...And for the record I think that anyone that supports my enemy IS an aggressor.

The Suicide bombers see Israel as an occupation force..And therefore EVERYONE is an aggressor.

The Kamakazi pilots were defending their Emperor.

And the 9/11 hijackers were defending Islam and the home land from our support of Israel and occupation of the middle east.

While I UNDERSTAND them, and think that they all had Honor to die for their causes...does not mean I agree.

I CAN however respect their honor.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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And I agree that if you enlisted, and you still have an obligation, that you are honor bound to go. All of my previous comments were in regard to an involuntary draft.

Which this thread is NOT about.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[LouDiamond 1]

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I thought it was a term in the neighborhood of 3 years and then you could reupp, or go back to the civilian world. 5 year requirement for those who wanted to go to college on the Army's dime.

The length of the enlistment is up to the individual with the minimum being 3 (unless it's changed).

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Historically, how often has this recall been done?

It has happened several times. My grandfather was called back onto active duty during the Vietnam war to serve as an instructor at flight school. Many times, it is only the critical MOS(jobs) that are called back onto active duty to make up for a shortage in certain areas.

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I remember back in 1991 when many Reservists were shocked to find out that their commitment actually involved going to war, and it wasn't just a weekend game for a small pension. Many suddenly wanted to back out.

Again, I don't know what world some people live in. There is not a doubt in the world as to what a Military's purpose is or what functions it carries out. Yet some people act shocked when they are called on to do what a Military was designed to do. Some want to suck on the tit and enjoy all the benifits but don't want to pay the piper when all is said and done. It's kind of like walking into a topless bar and being shocked that there are tits every where and the women want money.

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Was the 8 year bit made very clear, or was that detail brushed over?

It was(is) in black and white and it isn't fine print from day one and once you actually go through the process of signing out of the military you are again made aware of your obligation if you have not fullfilled the minimum time. I know a guy who was with my unit during the Panama invasion who later got out right before we went to Iraq the first time. About a month and a half later he was called back up and in the military again albeit at another post and in another unit.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Ron 10]

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The length of the enlistment is up to the individual with the minimum being 3 (unless it's changed).

The length is 8 (As you know) But the ACTIVE time is up to the enlistment contract...BTW the mimumum when I signed on (1/6/99) was 2 years, 2 mths for Infantry. If you wanted Airborne it was 3 years. And most other MOS's were 3 years.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[skycop 0]

I have'nt read this whole thread but, people who enlist sign a contract. If they get called up, tough shit!!

I've been called up three times since 1999. One time under Clinton (Operation Allied Force), twice under Bush.

I was making up reserve days that I was behind on Sept. 11, 2001. This led to me being gone from home for 14 months.

Bitching is good, GI's are very good at it!

I'm getting ready to go back for the 2nd time in two years. It's fine with me (not my family though). I signed on the dotted line 22yrs ago, I understood then and understand now.

For those who run or refuse, FUCK EM' they are nothing but cowards, I'm a professional with a career but, I'll put my life on hold to do what needs to be done.

Even if I don't agree (which I do by the way), I still am obligated. Some folks don't understand obligation.

That is HONOR, many people don't understand the concept.

Let the flaming begin.................

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[kallend 2,113]

People who signed up agreed to this - that's not the problem.

The problem is the piss-poor planning and lack of coherent strategy by this lying administration which makes it necessary at all.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ianmdrennan 2]

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By your definition, the most honorable group of people out there are Palestinian suicide bombers. After all, they are making the ultimate sacrifice for their nation.

They are VERY honorable, as were the Kamakazi Pilots of WW2, And the terroists of 9/11.

I may not AGREE with them, but they had honor.

Of course you would not understand.

There is no honor in killing innocent people.

I typically side with Ron, but I agree with this statement.
I typically side with Ron, but I see the point that we as Americans DO have a duty and responsibility to oppose our government when it is doing wrong.

I have not decided whether we are truly doing wrong or not at this point. I think it is noble and honorable to free a foreign people from a despotic ruler, even if it costs our lives. The debate arises from "why do we do this in one place, but not in the loads of others where there are also despotic rulers?"

It's a tough question.

For the record, I never served, because I couldn't stomach the idea of taking orders from people I was bound to think were morons, just because they had a rank over me. I wanted a more self-determined life.

To each his own.

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Normally these threads get my blood boilding, but I'll be damned if that wasn't a great post.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[skycop 0]

The piss-poor planning started with a previous administration.. That administration gutted the military. This is the reason we are in the fix we are now.
This is an A-political post. I was called-up once by that president.
A major shift in mission (from the active-duty to the Guard and Reserve) was supposed to be a huge "peace dividend" from the Cold War.
We are now paying the price for that policy.
I've been accused here before of being uneducated and ill-informed about some issues.
On these issues I'm well too informed.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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There is no honor in killing innocent people.

I typically side with Ron, but I agree with this statement.
I typically side with Ron, but I see the point that we as Americans DO have a duty and responsibility to oppose our government when it is doing wrong.

I have not decided whether we are truly doing wrong or not at this point. I think it is noble and honorable to free a foreign people from a despotic ruler, even if it costs our lives. The debate arises from "why do we do this in one place, but not in the loads of others where there are also despotic rulers?"

It's a tough question.

For the record, I never served, because I couldn't stomach the idea of taking orders from people I was bound to think were morons, just because they had a rank over me. I wanted a more self-determined life.

To each his own.

-

Normally these threads get my blood boilding, but I'll be damned if that wasn't a great post.

Blues,
Ian

[Luv2Fall 0]

I remember those days.........training funds out the window, MTOE equipment red-lined due to not having parts as we once did, base closures, personnel shortages, more deployment and doing more with less, training funds, training funds and training funds.............including ammo and fuel.......it started sucking the big one.