About time this was passed allowing LE concealed carry in all 50 states

[cvfd1399 0]

http://leaa.org/218/

This is gonna be a dream for me. Mississippi next to louisiana where I live does not have an agreement to allow us Louisiana LE to carry in their state under a comission or a private concealed licence. This will end the 20 year bitching and fighting between LA and MS. It would be great to have all 50 states the same so you don't have to worry about stopping at state lines and moving firearms from holser to a lock box in the trunk, ect. It is a pain in the ass when you travel to research the states you are traveling throught to see what steps you have to take in order to not get harasses.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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http://leaa.org/218/

This is gonna be a dream for me. Mississippi next to louisiana where I live does not have an agreement to allow us Louisiana LE to carry in their state under a comission or a private concealed licence. This will end the 20 year bitching and fighting between LA and MS. It would be great to have all 50 states the same so you don't have to worry about stopping at state lines and moving firearms from holser to a lock box in the trunk, ect. It is a pain in the ass when you travel to research the states you are traveling throught to see what steps you have to take in order to not get harasses.

Outline for me the reasons why this should apply only to LEO and not to those like me, who have been investigated and have applied for and received a permit to carry concealed weapons from the state in which I live. Why is it reasonable for me, a civilian with a carry permit, to be treated as worthy of the right to carry concealed weapons in one state (plus that grant reciprocity) but not in all 50 states? If your answer is, "Well, you're not a sworn and trusted police officer," I guess I can come back with about a dozen instances of police officers betraying that trust by raping, stealing, murdering... Being a police officer is NOT proof of having the character that one should demand of someone entitled to carry weapons.

I want 50-state reciprocity FOR ALL PERMIT HOLDERS. We do not change into untrustworthy people just because we drive over an imaginary line!

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[cvfd1399 0]

I agree with you being held to one sate or a few with a agreements sucks. but I would bet you do not go through all the training that we go through. Initially 6 months of Firearms training every other saturday and sunday for 8 hours shooting from up to 50 yds, traffic stops involving gunfights using simmuntion, and CQB house clearing. Recurrency includes requalifying with a semi-auto 4 times a year with 40 hours weapon retention training a year. Not saying that you couldn't gun me down in a gunfight, but we are looking it in a political arena. Here in my state the private concealed licence holders only have to sit through 8 hours of firearms awareness, 8 hours of law and shoot a b-27(man sized) paper target 10 times anywhere on the body at 7 yds ONCE every 4 YEARS! This is alarming to me. If I was GOV. of a state and I had a strict Concealed weapons program, and my neighbor state had a very poor program I would hate to be forced to allow them to carry in my state. If they upped the qualifications to post standards and made them universal that would be a start.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Regardless of the fact that I don't go through the training you are talking about, my state HAS seen fit to grant the CCW permit to me. This begs the question, "Apparently I'm OK to carry in Florida; what about me is different if I should, say, pass through Kansas or Illinois with my concealed handgun?"

The facts bear out one thing in particular: it is NOT cause for alarm that your state has such 'lax' requirements. Concealed weapon permit holders, by all accounts, have sterling records regarding the rate of accidental gunshot wounds or deaths, as well as sterling records regarding criminal behavior. The rates of these things are FAR below the rates of the public at large. Remember, these people are not generally having to clear houses or conduct traffic stops, etc. They are just defending themselves. It's not something that you can be assured 100% success at, but it's a lot harder to shoot the wrong person when you're the victim of a robber, and not a cop showing up at the scene to see two guys going at it with weapons or even just fists.

You are saying that you would hate to be forced, as governor, to allow civilians from 'lax' states to carry in your state. WHY? Is there some statistic you can point to that shows the present criteria for giving, say, Florida CCW permits is allowing dangerous incompetents to carry guns? If this is your assertion, why don't you back it up for us? If not, I think that 1987 to the present is time enough for your predictions of bad news from permit holders to have shown itself. Fact is, it hasn't happened.

FYI Florida is pretty darn lax when it comes to granting permits. I took the course at the local gun show in '98: all that was required was about a few hours of lecture covering legal usage of deadly physical force. NO range time. NO gun handling. These are things that, after all, behoove the gun owner to get on their own.

And in spite of this laxity, problems with permit holders (while they do occur) are few and far between -- a statistical anomaly.

I put to you again that there is nothing about a pistol permit holder in one state that should prevent him from carrying in all 50 states, unless you're saying that he's simply unfit for even his own state in the first place. Fit for one is fit for all.

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[skycop 0]

Jeffery,
This new bill is long overdue. One could argue about concealed carry holder vs. cops across state lines all day.
I'm sure some cop somewhere will do something stupid in another state and there wil be a bunch of "I told you so's" from the left. Just like when concealed carry peeps fuck up.
However, there is no comparison between concealed carry holders (which I back fully) and full time law enforcement officers. LEO's live this stuff every day 24-7, it is a safety issue involving trained people vs. people with essentially an orientation.
Kentucky's concealed carry training standards are minimal at best.
I have, over my years in LE, received hundreds of hours of firearms instruction. I also have 17 yrs street experience. That is the difference.
If it works out it may open the door for concealed carry holders.
I live on a state line, and often bump into offenders while in another state, it is a pain in the ass and illegal for me to carry in that state.
To be honest your agruments sound like whining, chill out, be patient, and it should all work-out.
The funny thing is I very seldom carry off duty, mainly only when I travel by vehicle, (which I do frequently). So for me this works out great.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

It's not whining, it's pointing out one very important fact:

Many gun owners who would support this bill for cops to carry in all 50 states resent the fact that as far as us legal CCW holders, cops leave us in the cold. They don't vocalize their support for CCW, which is an unbounded success just about every way you look at it.

In the meantime, we get the politicized police groups, like FOP and Association of Chiefs of Police palling around with Bill Clinton on photo ops to support the "assault weapons ban" and to CONDEMN CCW when it comes up for votes in various states.

You can't deny the righteous indignation of civlilian gun owners when police want public support for something like this, but withhold that support for us, when we know we are not part of the problem.

That's all I'm sayin'.

If cops want supporton this issue from the many gun owners who resent not being able to carry in different states, they need to give at LEAST a nod toward legal CCW holders, and vocally support that concept.

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[skycop 0]

The political arms of LE, such as the FOP or IACP may not back concealed carry but, the rank and file do overwhelmingly.
However the training standards in the states I am familiar with SUCK!!! The main fear of CCW is LE (as always) getting stuck in the middle of a CCW holder doing something stupid because of the low training standards.
The bottom line is CCW holders are not trained anywhere near the standards of LE. Experience is another factor. Even a rookie cop has been tested in several high stress situations, CCW holders may never be tested in this way. And if they are, they have very minimal training to rely on. That my friend is the main reason.
I know several really squared away CCW holders, I know some real dipshit cops, and vice versa. However the overall training nod goes to LE for the best result.
There are exceptions but I wouldn't feel comfortable with a 50 state carry for CCW holders at this time.
And yes it does sound like whining, sort of like the PC crowd stomping their feet, crying and screaming "it's not fair"!!!!!!.
If you want to carry in all 50 states, put on the funny blue polyester suit and badge.
Any by the way, why does a guy with the prefix of "peaceful" like guns so much..............?

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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The political arms of LE, such as the FOP or IACP may not back concealed carry but, the rank and file do overwhelmingly.

Then they should get their asses out in public and come forward in favor of CCW in states where the advocates are having trouble getting it passed.

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However the training standards in the states I am familiar with SUCK!!! The main fear of CCW is LE (as always) getting stuck in the middle of a CCW holder doing something stupid because of the low training standards.

Then where are the stats, from THIRTY FOUR states, showing that this has turned out to be a big problem?

Surely if it's as big a problem as you are alleging, it has shown up in someone's study? Find it for us, if you are going to make the assertion. Or are you making the assertion with nothing factual or statistical to back it up? Your common sense hunch is all we have to go on?

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The bottom line is CCW holders are not trained anywhere near the standards of LE. Experience is another factor. Even a rookie cop has been tested in several high stress situations, CCW holders may never be tested in this way. And if they are, they have very minimal training to rely on. That my friend is the main reason.

"Main reason" for what? For cops not supporting CCW? I thought you said they DID.

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There are exceptions but I wouldn't feel comfortable with a 50 state carry for CCW holders at this time.

If you wouldn't feel comfortable with a 50 state carry law for CCW holders, how on earth could you feel comfortable with CCW at all? If I'm in Florida with a CCW license, and I come to Kansas, what's different about me that I was safe to carry a gun in FL but not in KS? Your position makes no logical sense. Either you support CCW or you do not -- 50 states recognition doesn't change a thing about it unless you believe there's some magical difference between carrying in one state and carrying in another.

As far as your training discrepancies are concerned, please account for the shooting of that guy in NYC, where the cops fired 41 times, hitting him only 19 -- and on top of that, the guy was not holding a weapon, but a cellular phone or a wallet or something! Contrary to what you're saying about currency training, I've heard that lots of cops shoot maybe ONCE a YEAR, just to requalify. There are many many shooting enthusiasts (who probably make up the bulk of CCW holders) who are such ardent shooting hobbyists that they are FAR more competent with their handguns than the average cop is!

Besides which, you are holding CCW holders up to a level of training that is not generally necessary to accomplish the basic SELF-defense mission that they carry CCW for in the first place.

But once again, if cops won't stick up for general CCW, don't expect gun owners to stick up for cops' right to carry in 50 states.

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And yes it does sound like whining, sort of like the PC crowd stomping their feet, crying and screaming "it's not fair"!!!!!!.
If you want to carry in all 50 states, put on the funny blue polyester suit and badge.
Any by the way, why does a guy with the prefix of "peaceful" like guns so much..............?

There's no contradiction between peacefulness and guns. I don't use guns to harm people, first of all. Second, a willingness to engage in self defense should one be threatened is not an indication that one is not peaceful.

And as far as "If you want to carry in all 50 states, put on the funny blue polyester suit and badge," I thought the point is you cops DON'T yet have that right... So doesn't that make this bad advice?

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[kelpdiver 2]

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I agree with you being held to one sate or a few with a agreements sucks. but I would bet you do not go through all the training that we go through. Initially 6 months of Firearms training every other saturday and sunday for 8 hours shooting from up to 50 yds, traffic stops involving gunfights using simmuntion, and CQB house clearing. Recurrency includes requalifying with a semi-auto 4 times a year with 40 hours weapon retention training a year. Not saying that you couldn't gun me down in a gunfight, but we are looking it in a political arena. Here in my state the private concealed licence holders only have to sit through 8 hours of firearms awareness, 8 hours of law and shoot a b-27(man sized) paper target 10 times anywhere on the body at 7 yds ONCE every 4 YEARS! This is alarming to me.

Civilians don't need that level of training - they need only be able to defend themselves, they aren't law enforcement.

[cvfd1399 0]

In my department there are 3 lawyers that are also reserve deputies. They are always at the capitol lobbying for all CCW bills. They also Hold CCW classes. B4 I became a deputy I obtained a CCW through the local gun range to later find out that the owner was a Capt, the guy working the desk was a LT and the lawywer that I was talking about, and the CCW instructor was a Sgt. So I CAN say that they are going "up to bat" for CCW. They helped pass alot of laws for us LE as well. At this time we can carry anywhere in the state at any time. This was not the case a few years ago you had to be ''On duty" in order to go into a bar,school,gun free zone concealed. They got that changed to allow all on/off/qualified retired officers to be an ecception.

[Luv2Fall 0]

I strongly feel reciprocity should extend to all 50 States, especially to those who travel. I don't travel and am happy with my CCW priviledges......but strongly support an expansion of some type.

[MarkM 0]

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I strongly feel reciprocity should extend to all 50 States, especially to those who travel. I don't travel and am happy with my CCW priviledges......but strongly support an expansion of some type.

The difference between these two issues is:

In every state police officers carry weapons.
Privite citizens can't carry weapons in every state.

So by allowing US-wide reciprocity for non-LE you would be forcing certain states to give people a right they wouldn't normally have in that state.

And the training for a LEO can be much more intense than a private citizen. In Indiana there is no training, seminars or ANY requirements other than a clean background check for obtaining a permit. You walk into the police station, fill out a form, pay 15 dollars and they'll mail you a pink sheet of paper that allows you to carry concealed. It's very open and the permit was good for I think 4 years(unless I moved) and allowed me to purchase any handgun without the need for a background check(though a background check only took a few mins in Indiana anyway).

And many states already do reciprocite. My Indiana CCW permit was recognized in Florida and the Florida permits are recognized in Indiana. There are a lot of states that will recognize each other.

But take a state like Illinois where CCW is a friggen felony(!), and they'll never recognize a citizens right for CCW nor respect any other states CCW laws. And really, I don't believe states should try to force other states to follow their own laws.

[Kennedy 0]

OK, no one argues that cops shouldn't carry while on the job, right?

When an LEO are in another state on official business (extradition, prisoner transfer, etc), he should be allowed to carry.

However, when you are off duty, what make you more deserving than the next guy to carry a firearm.

Now, normally I am 100% against requiring justification to exercise a right, but I really want to know why you think LEOs should be able to carry and Joe Citizen shouldn't. What's the difference?

Cops shouldn't have more rights that citizens. Legally, they have far fewer. Why should firearms be different?

edit: don't forget, I know many citizens with far better training than most LEOs receive, and I know (have met) many citizens who are far better practical pressure shooters than most LEOs.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[skycop 0]

It's funny,
I hear alot of "I met or I know someone" from CCW folks.
So taking a page from that argument,
I know several CCW holders who are wanna-be, soldier of fortune, gun nuts who could never pass a full LE background INVESTIGATION not check. These folks are so paraniod they think carrying a weapon will solve all their ills. These people are always looking over their shoulders.
On the other hand I know several CCW holders who are professional squared away people, they carry with common sense for good reasons.

A some of examples of CCW holders/types since the Diallo shooting was referenced here by jeffery.

These occured in area where I live/work.

-Man sees old man walking, man trys to rob old man. Old man is CCW holder, old man kills bad guy during robbery attempt. Justice Served-GOOD

-Woman accuses man of molesting her son. Allegation can't be proved to legal standards. Woman lures man into store, woman is CCW holder. Woman shoots man in the balls. Now personally I don't have a problem with that. But the legal types do.-BAD

-(mostly white)CCW backers walk around crime ridden nieghborhood (mostly black) with open sidearms. This is supposed to show how great CCW is? The press has a field day with them and portrays them pretty much as a bunch of gun toting rednecks and gun-nuts. I understand what they where trying to do but to the average joe it looked REAL bad.-BAD

Why should I as a LE have certain rights over the average joe? Because I've EARNED it. With proper training and experience, when dealing with stressful situations involving firearms. If CCW holders want 50 state rights which took LEO's many years to get. Then they need to be held to the same training standards.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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But take a state like Illinois where CCW is a friggen felony(!), and they'll never recognize a citizens right for CCW nor respect any other states CCW laws. And really, I don't believe states should try to force other states to follow their own laws.

What about the "full faith and credit clause" in the Constitution, which states:

Article IV. Section 1.
"Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State; And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof."

Many (myself included) take that to mean that when the official state government of a state grants license -- marriage and driving are two prime examples -- the other states must honor those licenses.

Why should it be different for concealed weapons? Here in Florida, without taking driver's ed, a kid can get his license at SIXTEEN. He can then drive into New York, where he would not be eligible for another two years, if he lived there. New York is forced to honor his driver's license even though NY's standards for granting one are more stringent, and the kid would not be eligible. This is an example of a state being "forced" to honor lesser qualifications.

Congress could and should pass laws which do exactly what the Full Faith and Credit clause provides.

Blue skies,
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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Why should I as a LE have certain rights over the average joe? Because I've EARNED it. With proper training and experience, when dealing with stressful situations involving firearms. If CCW holders want 50 state rights which took LEO's many years to get. Then they need to be held to the same training standards.

Oh, ho ho ho... Now we start seeing the pith of the matter. You feel that rights must be EARNED, specifically through police training. And the rest is sour grapes: you would resent having someone's rights recognized if you found they had not had the same requirements made of him. That's just pettiness.

You STILL FAIL to establish why it should be any tougher to carry in states that are not the gun owner's home state. Nothing changes when I cross a state line. If I wasn't fucking up with my CCW gun in my home state, there is no LOGICAL reason (as opposed to petty legal reason) to bar me from carrying in other states. This is not a particularly hot issue for me since I live in S. Florida and don't cross the state line except once or twice a year when traveling. Others live in states that border several others, and daily business may take them across the border and back into gun-unfriendly states. It's absurd to pretend that they're suddenly unworthy of carrying a gun in the neighboring state just because an imaginary line on a map was crossed. Yet that's what you're asserting. And you're still holding civilians up to what cops are measured by, despite the fact that they do not share the same duty burden and do not have to function in the same modality. All we have to do is defend ourselves -- something for which top-notch police training is shown over and over again (read NRA's "The Armed Citizen") to simply not be necessary.


edited P.S.: It's not as though states with stringent gun laws can legitimately say, "We don't want this proven-dangerous practice of carrying concealed weapons brought in from out of state," because there are ZERO statistics to show that CCW increases crimes or accidents involving guns. In fact, strong statistics indicate that CCW helps to decrease crime. So these states, like MA or IL, are NOT saving themselves from some boogeyman by prohibiting CCW, either by residents or by transients.

Blue skies,
-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[MarkM 0]

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However, when you are off duty, what make you more deserving than the next guy to carry a firearm.

Now, normally I am 100% against requiring justification to exercise a right, but I really want to know why you think LEOs should be able to carry and Joe Citizen shouldn't. What's the difference?

Well, when my uncle was a sheriff he always had to carry off duty because he made a lot of enemies while being a cop. Also, I don't know whether a cop's duty extends to them even if they're not on the clock. If a cop witnesses a robbery on the way home from work while stopping in to buy a pack of cigarettes should his response really be, "fuck that dude, I'm off duty".

If that is his proper response, then no I don't believe they should be carrying off duty(unless they have a visible job that requires the protection). But if they still are oblidged to intervene(provided they aren't putting their family at risk or something), then yeah, they should be allowed to carry off duty as a defacto.

[Kennedy 0]

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Why should I as a LE have certain rights over the average joe? Because I've EARNED it. With proper training and experience, when dealing with stressful situations involving firearms. If CCW holders want 50 state rights which took LEO's many years to get. Then they need to be held to the same training standards.

and here we come to the crux of your argument.

(A) Police are not "super citizens" who deserve more rights. Courts have decided that police cannot be granted rights that citizens do not have (concealed carry while banned for all others).

(B) Bullshit. You've earned the right to wear the badge. And I thank you for it. I hope to do the same. However, you have not earned more rights that anyone born here.

(C) Would you deny that places like Frontsite and Guncite and Thunder Ranch and Black Water provide better training than the average officer receives? If so, why do the people who train LEOs go there to learn?

(D) There are good people and there are bad people, and some people make mistakes. Would you argue that every use of 'people' in the previous sentence can be replaces with 'LEOs?'

(E) Are you now arguing the usefulness of CCW? If not, what relevance does providing examples of foolishness or mistakes by CCW holders? Do you not think there are many readily available sources for foolishness or mistakes by LEOs?

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Why should I as a LE have certain rights over the average joe?

You're wrong. He shouldn't.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Kennedy 0]

There is no requirement for state/county/local LEOs to intervene beyond that of Joe Citizen when LEOs are travelling out of state, unless for official business.

If I am not correct in this, then there are text books to be corrected, as well.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[MarkM 0]

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This is an example of a state being "forced" to honor lesser qualifications.

Except that in many states it isn't a matter of qualifications, it's a matter of the entire practice being unlawful.

Also, some states allow for gay marriages but that doesn't mean those marriages will be honored in other states. It's not quite so black and white.

What about the drinking age or age of consent? Those "qualifications" vary from state to state.

[MarkM 0]

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There is no requirement for state/county/local LEOs to intervene beyond that of Joe Citizen when LEOs are travelling out of state, unless for official business.

If I am not correct in this, then there are text books to be corrected, as well.

What about in state? And can all LEOs carry off duty in their own state? If so, then you have a class of citizens universal in the US that can CCW in their own state. It makes sense to allow them to do so across state lines.

The diff with non-LEO CCW is that not all states allow it. So if the same ruling applied to non-LEO's that would mean that me, being from Florida, could CCW in Illinois while Illinois citizens couldn't. And that would be wrong.

[Luv2Fall 0]

Equality/Fairness

[PhillyKev 0]

Full Faith and Credit is useless here. Every state makes its own rules about where a CCW can go armed and where he can't. If states were forced to recognize CCW all they would have to do is say ok, you can carry, in your house and nowhere else. That tactic wouldn't work.

I'm in favor of legal ccw everywhere. But I'm more opposed to federal legislation of what states can and can't do. The fight on this should be taken on each individual state, not the federal level.

[gmanpilot 0]

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I put to you again that there is nothing about a pistol permit holder in one state that should prevent him from carrying in all 50 states, unless you're saying that he's simply unfit for even his own state in the first place. Fit for one is fit for all.

Except for the fact that states should and do have the right to decide for themselves, and to exclude whomever they want.

_________________________________________
-There's always free cheese in a mouse trap.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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What about in state? And can all LEOs carry off duty in their own state? If so, then you have a class of citizens universal in the US that can CCW in their own state. It makes sense to allow them to do so across state lines.

I wish I could remember who it was about and where I read it, but it was either John Kerry or Ted Kennedy who did not even support the idea of their off-duty police officers carrying concealed guns -- IN THEIR OWN STATE!

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"