Distill it down; who will win?

[billvon 3,120]

>I would love to see the entire history of the Florida recount made into
>a documentary. It would be a fine campaign ad for Republicans.

I doubt that. A documentary on how the system was used to ensure the candidate who lost the popular vote nevertheless won the election through legal manuevers might not be the best campaign ad.

[billvon 3,120]

>I don't let my kids watch TV shows that I enjoy , such as South Park, or
> Beavis and Butthead, Sealab 2021 . . .

Would you support a ban on those shows if the technology needed to watch them (like streaming internet) became available to children?

[Kennedy 0]

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>I would love to see the entire history of the Florida recount made into
>a documentary. It would be a fine campaign ad for Republicans.

I doubt that. A documentary on how the system was used to ensure the candidate who lost the popular vote nevertheless won the election through legal manuevers might not be the best campaign ad.

The only people trying to use the system to steal the election were the people working for *Sore/Loserman*

The DNC wasn't bitching about the electoral college before the votes, they have no right to try to change the result after the count becuase that would fall in their favor. I don't see them in court or congress trying to change the system now, either.

Every single recount in Florida showed that Bush won.

Bush was the politician elected in 2000. Get over it.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[PhillyKev 0]

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Every single recount in Florida showed that Bush won.

And every single recount was based on a disenfranchised voting populace.

I'm over it, but I don't want to see a repeat.

[Ron 10]

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it is. it's the part about "make no law respecting" religion.

Why do people always quote and read that wrong?

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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

respecting: To feel or show deferential regard for; esteem

It is saying that Congress will not promote one religion over another...Think "Church of England".

And that Congress will not tell you how you should pray...Think "Spanish Inquisition".

NOWHERE does it say seperation of Church and State.

NOWHERE....

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Nightingale 0]

well, yeah. the government can't promote one religion over another. they can't possibly promote all of them, therefore, they must promote none.

[Ron 10]

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well, yeah. the government can't promote one religion over another. they can't possibly promote all of them, therefore, they must promote none.

I don't remember seeing CONGRESS say we had to go to Church this Sunday.

If Bush wants to believe in a God...Good for him. I'd rather a God fearing man be in the WH than a guy with no morals at all that says what he has to say to be popular.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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And every single recount was based on a disenfranchised voting populace.

Whos fault is it that people didn't vote?

Whos fault is it that the election system is set up how it is?

Whos fault is it that Gore played underhanded politics when HE tried to select the votes that would be counted (Excluding votes from overseas service members, and only trying to recount Dem counties)?

The electoral system has been in place for years...Only NOW did the Dems bitch about it.

Bush won...He won according to the rules in place.

Gore acted like a baby and threw a fit when he lost.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[PhillyKev 0]

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Whos fault is it that people didn't vote?

The people who made the rule that if you shared the same name with a felon you couldn't vote. That's Jeb Bush, et al.

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Whos fault is it that the election system is set up how it is?

The people who oversee the electoral process in Florida. Again, Jeb Bush, et al.

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Whos fault is it that Gore played underhanded politics when HE tried to select the votes that would be counted (Excluding votes from overseas service members, and only trying to recount Dem counties)?

Gore and the DNC

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The electoral system has been in place for years...Only NOW did the Dems bitch about it.

Not bitching about the electoral system. Bitching about voters being disenfranchised by the Florida state gov't.

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Bush won...He won according to the rules in place.

He sure did, that's why I'm over it.

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Gore acted like a baby and threw a fit when he lost.

Funny, I don't remember seeing that on the news.


==============================

Bottom line is you're right. Bush won. Bush won accoring to the rules in place. Gore lost. Gore tried every trick in the book to change that. Nothing we can do about this past event.

However, we're approaching another election where one side of this controversy is still in play. Gore isn't part of it. But Jeb Bush, et al are still running Florida. I just hope the appropriate steps are taken to insure that any eligilble voter is able to cast their vote for whom they want and have it count. Is that really asking all that much?

[Ron 10]

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Whos fault is it that people didn't vote?

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The people who made the rule that if you shared the same name with a felon you couldn't vote. That's Jeb Bush, et al.

Denying convicted FELONS of the right to vote was not brother Jeb.

For the record I don't think they should have the right to vote.

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Whos fault is it that the election system is set up how it is?

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The people who oversee the electoral process in Florida. Again, Jeb Bush, et al.

Uh the process has been in place longer than Jeb has held office.

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However, we're approaching another election where one side of this controversy is still in play. Gore isn't part of it. But Jeb Bush, et al are still running Florida. I just hope the appropriate steps are taken to insure that any eligilble voter is able to cast their vote for whom they want and have it count. Is that really asking all that much?

All I want is a legal vote.....And last times was legal.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[PhillyKev 0]

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Denying convicted FELONS of the right to vote was not brother Jeb.

For the record I don't think they should have the right to vote.

You're missing a key point here. It wasn't just the felons. It was anyone who happened to have the same name.

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Uh the process has been in place longer than Jeb has held office.

Uh, the governor appoints the electoral commission for the state.

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All I want is a legal vote.....And last times was legal.

I want one that represents the will of the voters. I thought that was the point. Not adhering to rules and regulations that can be manipulated by both sides.

[billvon 3,120]

>Bush was the politician elected in 2000. Get over it.

And more americans wanted Gore to be president than Bush. Get over it.

[Ron 10]

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You're missing a key point here. It wasn't just the felons. It was anyone who happened to have the same name.

And how about the number of Dem voters that were dead but still managed to vote?

Like it or not accidents happen....Just like dead people can still vote.

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Uh the process has been in place longer than Jeb has held office.

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Uh, the governor appoints the electoral commission for the state.

Uh yes, but the PROCESS has been in place longer than Jeb. And the PROCESS is what allowed Bush to win the state, and it also allowed Bush to win the country.

If you don't like the PROCESS try and change it.
Its out dated at best.

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want one that represents the will of the voters. I thought that was the point. Not adhering to rules and regulations that can be manipulated by both sides.

So like I said try and make a change...Until you manage to change the entire process....I'll stick to what is legal.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[PhillyKev 0]

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So like I said try and make a change...Until you manage to change the entire process....I'll stick to what is legal.

How is change supposed to happen when anytime someone brings up the inconsistencies someone like you says to stop complaining about it? Public awareness of a problem is the first step toward seaking resolution.

[Kennedy 0]

How can you say he was "using the system" to get elected. That's how the fucking system works. You don't have to have the popular vote to get elected. You have a problem with that? Take it out on congress, not the man who won an election by the rules in place. The popular vote doesn't mean a damned thing. What "more Americans wanted" is irrelevant to how the system works right now.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[crwtom 0]

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Kerry, Bush, Nader, who?

hard to tell and I'll violate your 3-sentence rule.

Polls (including Nader) have the two main candidates changing leads from
week to week and from poll to poll. It just depends on what's in the news
at the moment (it appears patriotic feelings around the Reagan funeral gave
Bush a boost in the last week that reverted to a Kerry lead this week amidst
bad news from Iraq).

Last minute events - caputure of ObL etc - could of course create unexpected
upsets. Disregarding those, however, I'd say time is working against the
incumbent. Iraq is will continue to be a source of bad news - unless there is
a drastic change in the current frequency of fatalitues the number of US
casualties will break or get close to the 1000 mark by November, and the
vileness of attacks of attacks and executions over time will create more
disgust than partiotism (recall one of the reasons Carter got booted out of
office was b/c many thought the Iranian hostages were a humiliation of the
country).

The economy has recovered some - however, on the basis or "loan" of very
low interest rates. Inevitably they are going to come up and will so sooner
than later - the "loan" has to be payed back slowing everything down to
possibly a near stagnation. My guess is everything will stay roughly
at the level it is now for quite a while. In fact the SP500 is flatlining already
for a couple of months. Things are better than the baisse of the war-time
recession but still below the pre-9-11 levels. Ambivalence will be the
bottom line. The scale is tipped by how the deficit is "communicated" in the
campaign.

The polling results on "election match-ups" are highly volatile but in average
in a something near a "dead-heat" tie between the cadidates. If you look
closer though into sub categories (strongly support vs somehat support)
most polls tell you that Kerry support is significantly less ambivalent. Two
things, I'd consider results of that, are the fact that recently the Kerry
campaign is outperforming the "fundraising master" Bush, and that a major
blunder of the Admin in the fall could more easily prove fatal for them.

The Nader effect is pretty significant in a close election like this. Coming back
to the 1980 election I remembered a lot of people got hyped about the
independent back then - Anderson, I think. I also rememebr many people
switching their votes from Anderson to Carter in the last minute to make
their votes count toward what they thought was the "lesser of two evils" -
there's some psychology when push come to shove on election day and you
have to decide whether you want to make a statement or a difference.
The same may happen here.


Cheers, T

*******************************************************************
Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true

[Kennedy 0]

Kev, I wouldn't tell you (or anyone else) to shut up if they wanted to talk about changing the system. Hell, even Ron agrees with you (and how often does that happen?).

If you want to talk about changing the system, fine, let's do that (in another thread might be easier). But don't start bashing on Bush just because the process in place meant that he was elected. He didn't manipulate it, he didn't massage it, he didn't circumvent it. The only people I saw doing that were in the Sore/Loserman camp.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[PhillyKev 0]

That's a bit of revisionist history, considering Bush also filed a federal suit to STOP the recount after another court ordered it to take place. But you're right, that's neither here nor there.

The process in place didn't mean he was elected. The process in place was inherently flawed and abused by BOTH sides.

Again, I'm not bitching about the outcome, it was the proper outcome given the circumstances. I'm just saying let's learn from mistakes of the past. That's hard to do when people ignore those mistakes because they worked out in their own favor.....that time.

[billvon 3,120]

> How can you say he was "using the system" to get elected.

Uh, he used the electoral system, and then the supreme court, to get elected. Surely you don't disagree with that?

> You don't have to have the popular vote to get elected.

Agreed; we use a system other than popular vote to elect presidents here in the US.

> The popular vote doesn't mean a damned thing.

Agreed, unless said politician's supporters claims he was elected because americans wanted him as president. I mean, it doesn't change a thing for them to claim that, just means that they don't understand how the system works.

[storm1977 0]

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And more americans wanted Gore to be president than Bush.

That is an inaccurate statement bill. More Voting americans wanted Gore to be president than Bush. You can not speak for the non voting public so don't try.

-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[PhillyKev 0]

He's got a point. There were those large blocks like the Juvenile, Retarded, Death Row Inmates for Bush that didn't vote.

[Nightingale 0]

hehe...

try this one:

"More Americans who cared enough about the election results to get their asses to the voting booth wanted Gore as president."


I think that anyone who doesn't care enough to go vote has no basis for complaint about the results of the election.

[Kennedy 0]

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> How can you say he was "using the system" to get elected.

Uh, he used the electoral system, and then the supreme court, to get elected. Surely you don't disagree with that?

Actually, I do. He did not "use" the system. He participated in it appropriately. He did not use te Supreme Court to get elected, he used them to stop Sore/Loserman's attempts to steal an election.

Bush was elected. He won according to the system in place. Therefore any actions he took after the first vote count were to ensure the system functioned appropriately.

He didn't use the system or the SCUS to get elected.
He had already been elected.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

He had already been elected.

No, the electoral college reps were elected. They had not yet cast their vote.

I wonder what kind of screaming we'd be hearing about Gore stealing the eliction and manipulating the system if a couple of those guys changed their vote.

[Zennie 0]

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>Bush was the politician elected in 2000. Get over it.

And more americans wanted Gore to be president than Bush. Get over it.

OK time to piss off the folks on the left. I am an equal opportunity offender after all.

Yes Gore won the majority of the popular vote. Unfortunately, our Constitution does not establish the popular vote as the means by which we elect a president... it is a majority of the Electoral College that counts.

Though I hate Bush and want him booted out of office, I've never disputed the legitimacy of his tenure. Anyone who looks back on that honestly and reviews all the post-election-fallout recounts knows that he still won even using the standard Gore promoted.

And remember, Dubya isn't the first president to be elected this way. Rutherford B. Hayes and Benjamin Harrison also lost the popular vote but won in the college.

To me the biggest thing in all this is that for some bizzarre reason Bush has deluded himself into thinking he had a popular mandate for his policies.... which he most certainly did (and does) not.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon