'Faith' (see:religious) schools - good or bad?

[Newbie 0]

Are they useful for providing a spiritual and moral backbone in a society where morals and values seem to be ever decreasing, or are they discriminatory and divisionary to all those groups of differing faith (or non faith for that matter)?

There has been some discussion in the UK on this recently - i'm wondering what people think.

See here for more info:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/3791463.stm

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[billvon 3,088]

> Are they useful for providing a spiritual and moral backbone in a society
>where morals and values seem to be ever decreasing, or are they
>discriminatory and divisionary to all those groups of differing faith (or non
>faith for that matter)?

They are quite useful to give parents another option for their children's education. They are a bit divisionary, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're discriminatory; the catholic high school I went to was not limited to catholics. I learned a lot from talking to Uneal (a hindu) in band - his take on our religion was really enlightening.

[mardigrasbob 0]

Found this link, and am still laughing.


www.landoverbaptist.org/news0703/biblecamp.html

See us religious zealots still have a sense of humor!

[Deuce 1]

The idea that they are divisionary is ridiculous. If you go to the public (government/free in the US) school down the street from my kids Catholic school, you will see voluntary segregation by race at the tables and on the playground.

That is not acceptable in my parish. It also brings us parents in to closer contact with each other. We are all Catholic (yes, there's non-catholics in the school), but the race and ethnicity is all over the map.

In my community, the environment and challenge at Holy Rosary is way better than the local schools.

[Nightingale 0]

I believe that they're a viable alternative, provided the quality of the education is similar to that provided by public schools.

In many cases, it isn't.

Catholic/Private/Parochial school teachers are not required to be credentialed NOR have any background in their subject matter.

Most private schools do not have the means to provide for special needs children. Because they are not required to accept all children, like the public schools are, their test scores are naturally higher, as they do not have to deal with so-called "difficult" children.

Private schools are not required to give state-mandated tests. When they do test, they typically do so at the END of the year, rather than the beginning. The result of this is that you see in the newspaper "third graders in private schools score higher than third graders at public schools." Of course they do! Those private school pupils have had an additional eight months of schooling, as their testing is done in the late spring, as opposed to the public schools, who are required to test in the fall. A child who's three weeks out of second grade is very different from one who's about ready to start fourth.

Public school pupils generally have a better grounding in mathematics, while private/parochial students tend to have a better grounding in language and reading. Private/parochial schools are not required to adhere to state standards. Most children in public schools learn long division in third or fourth grade. In many parochial/private schools, this concept isn't taught until fifth or sixth (I learned it in sixth grade myself at parochial school, while the public school kids learned it in fourth).


A bit of my own personal background/experience:

I went to parochial school from kindergarten to sixth grade. At sixth grade, I transferred to a public school. I went from being a straight A student to getting Ds and Fs in math. It wasn't that I was math-stupid or something, it was that my prior educational mathematics background had been extremely lacking. I continued to get As in language/english classes, however, and also had a better grasp of history than my peers.

I taught at a parochial school four years ago. My college degree is in "Film and Television". The school had me teaching Music, Computers, and Composition, and coaching girls athletics. NONE of which had anything to do with my educational background. I was there simply because they needed a body in the classroom. There were no standards for the classes I taught. I was simply tossed into a classroom with no textbooks, no guidelines, and no experience. My assigned "mentor teacher" was someone who, himself, didn't have a credential and only had two years of experience. When I asked the administration what I should focus my lessons on, I was told "just teach." um..ok...teach WHAT? "Music, Computers, and Composition" are all pretty broad subjects. Should I concentrate on music appreciation, or on music theory, or on vocal technique? My computers were Apple IIes, so there wasn't a whole lot I could do there, but I did my best. Composition was also a very broad topic... should I focus on creative writing, on research, on form and structure? what? What were these students going to face in high school? What could I do to best prepare them?

In private/parochial schools, there is an extraordinary lack of communication between the schools themselves and the high schools. The teachers don't talk. The eighth grade teachers don't know what the freshman teachers will be teaching, so they have no clue how to properly prepare them.

During my time working on my master's degree in education, I learned that what I experienced was far from rare. In fact, I'd call it typical.

Private/Parochial schools can be great alternatives. The trick is to find a good one.

Ask the following questions:

Do you adhere to state standards and guidelines?
(if yes, ask to see a copy..they should have more than a few lying about if they really stick to the standards)

Are all your teachers credentialled, including special subject and physical education teachers? (if no, find another school)

Do all your faculty have a college education? (more than a few private/parochial school teachers don't. If this answer is no, find another school)

How many of your staff and faculty possess higher degrees?

What do you do to encourage your faculty to keep the curriculum up to date?

When were your history, reading, science and math textbooks last replaced and updated? (should be within the last five years or so)

How does your school score on standardized tests when compared with other private/parochial schools (remember, you can't accurately compare public schools here because they test at a different time and test special needs kids too)?

What provisions does your school have for special needs children?

What is the college graduation rate of your school's pupils (high schools will track this better than elementary, but most will have some idea)?

[DrunkMonkey 0]

Well, Catholic schools were singularly responsible for my becoming a Deist...

[chuckbrown 0]

Quote

Found this link, and am still laughing.


www.landoverbaptist.org/news0703/biblecamp.html

See us religious zealots still have a sense of humor!

I'm still cracking up (so to speak) over the What Would Jesus Do Thong.

[kallend 2,115]

Quote

The idea that they are divisionary is ridiculous. If you go to the public (government/free in the US) school down the street from my kids Catholic school, you will see voluntary segregation by race at the tables and on the playground.

That is not acceptable in my parish. .

Forcing kids to sit involuntarily at tables on account of their race - that's appalling!

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mardigrasbob 0]

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Forcing kids to sit involuntarily

Huh?

[kallend 2,115]

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Forcing kids to sit involuntarily

Huh?

Voluntary segregation by race at tables is not acceptable in his school.

Therefore...

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Deuce 1]

I suspect you survived the UK school system, so your perception of what is appalling may be just skewed a bit.

Nice to see you poking about mischeivously, though.

And if you are talking about the institutional coersion that goes on at my kid's school, it involves much standing, and kneeling, not just sitting*

*avoid new standard institutional reference to pedophelia in responses, please.

[mardigrasbob 0]

(sit + race) =' (sit' + race')

[pajarito 0]

My kids go to a non-denominational Bible based Christian private school. My daughter will be starting Kindergarten next year and my son will be in 3rd Grade. When we moved here from Augusta, he transferred from a much respected public school there to this private school here. He had quite a bit of catching up to do. This school exceeds the national average by a considerable amount in all areas of study. From my experience, it has been a very good decision and I support it. Of course, my opinion would be on a school by school basis. Overall, however, I think they tend to set higher standards.

[Nightingale 0]

do they test at the beginning of the year or the end?

do they have any special needs children enrolled?

do they have any English language learners?

if the answer to the first question is Yes, and the second two questions are No, you really have no way of comparing them to the national average. You can, however, look into comparing them to other private schools who also test at the end of the year and do not enroll special needs or limited English students, to give you a more accurate comparison.

[Deuce 1]

I know you're really invested in this topic, but most of all it's about pants and pajamas.

This past school year, as I was driving my kids to school, we drove past the kids going to the local public school every day. A good percentage of the boys had their pants hanging off their asses and a similar percentage of the girls were wearing print cotton pajamas. We got a good look, as the kiddidles were slouching through the intersection against the light. Very cool to walk against the light, you know

Anyhow, the fashion show before during, and after school was not conducive to learning. It's other stuff, too, like respect for each other and the environment. You won't find litter on our campus, and the local elementary school is covered with it. And it's the kids doing the littering, or not, in each case. I also guarantee you we are spending less for janitorial services and have cleaner facilities. Our janitors don't have to endure disrespect from our children.

Even if our kids school had lower scores on math and english, I'd keep them there. There are just nicer, more articulate kids there, and adults who love them.

On average, nicer articulate people do better than rude concieted ones.

Gareth Holder being the obvious exception.

[Nightingale 0]

many public schools now have students wear uniforms as well.

As for the litter issue, well, the public school probably has a lot more kids. The public schools around here have eight to ten sixth grade classes (approximately 360 kids per grade) as opposed to the private schools, which have one class per grade (around 30 kids per grade). More people means more trash.

[miked10270 0]

In the UK, "Catholic" schools are also publicly funded.

They accept children on the following priorities:

1. Catholic Children.

2. Children with siblings at the school.

3. Children who have attended Catholic "Pre-School" / "Primary School"

4. Other children in the school catchment area.

5. Other children.

... Until the class is full.

Personally, I'm not Catholic, but my kids are ALL going through the Catholic denomination state education system. I had the choice of the local Catholic school, 2 non-demoninational schools, and a small "village" school with a pupil-teacher ratio of 9:1.

My kids are at the Catholic school simply because they get the best education and moral guidance there.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[Deuce 1]

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More people means more trash.

I completely disagree. More litterbugs mean more litter. The amount of trash is the same, the difference is between people who bother to walk it over to a trash can, and a peer group that does or does not tolerate watching someone drop their garbage on the ground.

The other parents at my kid's school are also likely to step in when they see my kids doing something rude. We parents are all in this together at our school. My friends with their kids in the local schools are always surprised at the level of "it takes a village" stuff we do with other kids.

In general we have higher behavior expectations from our kids than folks seem to have from the public school kids.

And our class sizes are huge compared to the local schools. The difference is our intolerance of disruptive students.

And I have no problem discriminating against hyperactive ADD kids with behavior problems. 29 kids should not have to color while the teacher is engaged in combat with one challenged student.

[pajarito 0]

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do they test at the beginning of the year or the end?

do they have any special needs children enrolled?

do they have any English language learners?

if the answer to the first question is Yes, and the second two questions are No, you really have no way of comparing them to the national average. You can, however, look into comparing them to other private schools who also test at the end of the year and do not enroll special needs or limited English students, to give you a more accurate comparison.

You’re correct in saying that the special needs children as well as those who might not speak English as their primary language will bring down the average of those schools which they attend. In private school, because they might not have as many children with special needs, they will probably have a higher caliber student as the average. By default, you’re going to get a higher level of education. My wife attended private school growing up. When she took the ACT to get into college, half her class, including her, scored 30 and above.

[Nightingale 0]

public schools generally have special classes for special needs kids that need them. You're not going to have a kid with the IQ of a vegetable mixed in with average to above average kids. However, that kid with the IQ of 30 is still going to be given the same standardized test as every other kid, nevermind he can't even hold a pen. Special needs kids are supposed to be put in the "least restrictive environment" that meets ALL their needs. If they're disruptive or can't follow along in a regular classroom, then a regular classroom isn't the place for them.

Most public school districts have "Gifted and Talented" (GATE) programs for above average kids. These are a good option if you have a bright kid, as teachers compete to teach these classes, so you usually get the most highly qualified teacher.

[Nightingale 0]

if a teacher is "engaged in combat with one challenged student" you either have an incompetant teacher or a student in incorrect placement. If the student cannot handle a normal classroom environment due to ADHD, the student should not be placed in that environment. There are many options that can be explored for kids with behavior issues such as you describe.

[pajarito 0]

Whatever....
The bottom line is that, if you want your child to recieve the best education possible with the most opportunities, you're more likely to get it in the private school system rather than the public school "experiment." ...Just my personal opinion...

[Nightingale 0]

Given the state of the parochial schools in my area, I would STRONGLY disagree. Again, however, it varies by school and area.

Comparison: (these figures are from 2002...don't think much has changed since then, though)

Public schools: 100% Credentialed
Parochial schools: 60% Credentialed

Public schools: 100% teacher subject verified (the teachers either have class credits or have taken a test to verify their subject knowledge)
Parochial schools: 55% verified (however, these teachers may be teaching other subjects than they were tested on, which is not permitted in public school. there was no data available on this)

Public schools: 40% of teachers with higher degrees
Parochial schools: 10% of teachers with higher degrees

Public schools: Pentium 4 computer labs
Parochial schools: Apple IIes mainly, a few pentium 2s.

Public schools: average textbook age - 3 years
Parochial schools: average textbook age - 12 years

Public schools: 100% of administration with higher degrees (admin credentials and/or masters/doctorate)
Parochial schools: 20% of administration with higher degrees

interesting, isn't it?

[kallend 2,115]

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On average, nicer articulate people do better than rude concieted ones.

Gareth Holder being the obvious exception.

Gareth's very articulate, you just misunderstand him.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[PhreeZone 20]

The Catholic School where I grew up was pretty well known locally for having higher pregnancy rates, higher arrests of their students for DUI's and lower test scores then the public schools around them.

In every academic testing peroid in which students were tested at the same time, the public students won out. I graduated in a class of 78, I was ranked 48th in the class with a GPA of 3.27 and a ACT score of 29. (36 in 2 categories, stupid english scores prevented a 32 ). Average ACT score of the private school was 26. I was actually kidded with some because I only got a half ride scholarship to college where most the others had a lot more scholarship money then I earned.

The private school cost a fortune compared to the free public schools so most the kids going to it acted like typical spoiled rich kids. Generally they never worked, only paid lip service to their church and had parents that were never around. My public school was a farming community that in general 70% of the kids started working at home at about age 10 and had parents there almost all the time.

Whats the story here? Any school can be great, just as any school can be horrible. Its the involvement of the parents that make a larger difference.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

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