What should the drinking age be???

[freethefly 6]

The numbers are actual and not twisted.
Also, there is a reason that the military prefers young bodies and young minds, they are easier to mold.
Consider the high percent of mental problems that soldiers are experiencing after returning from war and then giving them (under 21) easy access to alcohol will only accerlerate their problems. People often use alcohol (and drugs) as a coping tool only to spiral deeper into depression. I know a great deal on this subject as I had experienced it myself (7 suicide attempts while drunk). It is the main reason that I do not drink. I have no problem with someone drinking but, why back up on undoing the good that raising the drinking age has done?
Furthermore, I was not steering towards an mj debate, only asking why you border one and advocate another.
Alcohol has always been a major problem amongst teens. I recall several friends who died due to alcohol related incidents back when I was a teen in the 70's (I am 46yo, now). Living in St.Louis it was easy to go to Illinois to buy beer as the age limit was 19 and they seldom carded any one who remotely looked the age. We often dranked at bars in Granite City and then drive back to St.Louis. Far to many of us got hurt or died.
Merely saying if someone can go to war they deserve to drink is foolish. There are far to many problems that young people have to deal with and wanting to add another log to the fire is irresponsible thinking.

More stats for you to dispute.
2003 Alcohol-Related Traffic Fatalities
Among Youth Under 21
2003 Alcohol-Related Traffic Fatalities
Among 15-20 Year Old Drinking Drivers
Alabama 70 35
Alaska 4 2
Arizona 76 24
Arkansas 44 19
California 257 74
Colorado 39 18
Connecticut 17 8
Delaware 10 6
District of Columbia 6 2
Florida 154 65
Georgia 68 26
Hawaii 19 7
Idaho 22 8
Illinois 113 43
Indiana 48 15
Iowa 34 14
Kansas 50 21
Kentucky 34 15
Louisiana 73 31
Maine 6 3
Maryland 47 22
Massachusetts 49 25
Michigan 81 33
Minnesota 40 15
Mississippi 45 21
Missouri 90 32
Montana 21 11
Nebraska 20 11
Nevada 34 8
New Hampshire 12 3
New Jersey 41 14
New Mexico 35 14
New York 92 38
North Carolina 78 34
North Dakota 14 9
Ohio 75 33
Oklahoma 36 16
Oregon 34 10
Pennsylvania 99 44
Rhode Island 14 7
South Carolina 63 30
South Dakota 25 6
Tennessee 70 33
Texas 342 137
Utah 8 4
Vermont 7 4
Virginia 60 28
Washington 58 22
West Virginia 26 10
Wisconsin 67 33
Wyoming 9 2
U.S. Total 2,834 1,146
Source: 2003 US Department of Transportation-National Traffic Highway Safety Administration-October 2004

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[AnnasSkies 0]

In the Netherlands, it's sixteen for beer and wine, anything stronger you have to be 18. It's going great here so far... Weed is also 18, even that is going great...

fear is the mindkill

[jshatzkin 0]

I am not disputing the numbers at all. What I am disputing is the definition of "alcohol related". It does not necessarily mean that someone is drunk or the legal limit, but the stats are stacked to reflect that. And yes, there are many DRUNK driving (which is very different than "alcohol related") accidents. The numbers don't need to be inflated by including "alcohol related" category.

Would you not agree that a soldier, who can be trained to be responsible for patrols, shooting guns and driving tanks,...be responsible to drink? I am not at all disputing the health effects,..etc. I am discussing the AGE of responsibility.

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Furthermore, I was not steering towards an mj debate, only asking why you border one and advocate another

I am glad that you corrected yourself on that

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Living in St.Louis it was easy to go to Illinois to buy beer as the age limit was 19 and they seldom carded any one who remotely looked the age. We often dranked at bars in Granite City and then drive back to St.Louis. Far to many of us got hurt or died.

So if St Louis had same drinking age, I presume you would not have to drive so far to get alcohol, therefore cutting down on the accidents?

The questions is: does having an age limit REALLY affect drinking and driving incidents??

The MJ debate, I am sure is all about how each of us are raised and what values are instilled in us as children. You mentioned you father was quite a heavy MJ user, and you saw no harm in this. My father was a prosecutor and judge who labeled every drug user and drugs as bad. I don't totally buy into that philosophy, but how we are raised and our parents' values impact our own political/social thoughts to some degree. I still don't see a major issue with the whole MJ legalization thing.

Jen

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Old enough to serve your country in the military, be prosecuted as an adult, and vote - then you're DEFINITELY old enough to drink alcoholic beverages.

Actually I support the right of a parent to determine when their kid can have alcohol. Why the hell should the gov't be involved at all? I think a lot of the stupidity stemming from alocohol that occurs here in the US is due to the 21 y/o drinking age. I think lowering it would initially be painful, with an increase in DUI/DUI fatalities, but I think in the long run the benefits to our society would be great.

Damn it is cold in here....

I agree with TheAnvil.

[jshatzkin 0]

I copied this clip from a CNN debate on the same issue. I thought this was a good point, and they said it much more eloquently than I could have

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PALICZ: Well, it's not really a matter of the age, because everybody says that, you know, if you lower the age young then young people won't be able to handle alcohol responsibly. And it's been proven time and time again that it has nothing to do with a person's age, they've experience -- the inexperience in alcohol is the same for whatever age they are. If you start drinking at 21, you're going to have problems, because you're new at it. If you start drinking at 18, you're going to have problems because you're new at it.

Raising the driving -- drinking age, all it does is transfer people from 18 to 20 to 21 and over.

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PALICZ: And that's actually the fault of the driving -- the drinking age. Instead of in European countries, where you teach moderation and responsible drinking at a very early age, in this country it's secret. It's kind of a -- you know, it's a demonized thing. So you do it in your basement; you do it in backdoor keg parties.

You don't learn responsible drinking with your parents. That's what raising the drinking age has done, is turned responsible drinking into dangerous drinking.

Jen

[jshatzkin 0]

Here is a snippet of an interview with Dr. Ruth Clifford Engs of Indiana University, an internationally-known health educator and alcohol researcher. She supports lowering the age limit and here is her reasoning.

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Although the legal purchase age is 21, a majority of young people under this age consume alcohol, and too many of them do so in an irresponsible manner. This is largely because drinking is seen by these youth as an enticing "forbidden fruit," a "badge of rebellion against authority," and a symbol of adulthood. Our nation has twice tried prohibition, first at the state level in the 1850's and at the national level beginning in 1920. These efforts to prevent drinking were unenforceable and created serious social problems such as widespread disrespect for law, the growth of organized crime, and the development of immoderate consumption patterns.

The flaunting of the current age-specific prohibition is readily apparent among young people who, since the increase in the minimum legal drinking age, have tended to drink in a more abuse manner than do those of legal age. This, of course, is exactly what happened in the general public during national Prohibition.

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Yes, the proportion of the American population who drink (including young people) has been going down since about 1980. That was long before the states were required to raise the drinking age in 1987. And of course legislation wouldn't have limited consumption among those aged 21 or older.

On the other hand, while fewer young people are drinking and their average consumption levels have been dropping (along with that of the general population), more younger people tend to drink abusively when they do consume. This change occurred after the increase in the drinking age.

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Dr. Hanson--
So, it's a little like what happened during national Prohibition?

Dr. Engs--
Exactly. Prohibition tended to destroy moderation and instead promoted great excess and abusive drinking. People tended to gulp alcohol in large quantities on those occasions when they could obtain it. The notorious speakeasies didn't exist before prohibition, when people could drink legally and leisurely. What we currently have is age-specific prohibition and young people are forced to create their own "speakeasies" in dorm rooms and other secret locations where they, too, must gulp their alcohol in the absence of moderating social control.

And another response to your remark:

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Furthermore, I was not steering towards an mj debate, only asking why you border one and advocate another.

The same reason why you are such an advocate of legalizing MJ and against this! Two separate issues I suppose!

Jen

[Elisha 1]

16...and loosely enforced (like in Europe). But if caught while driving (drunk, .05%, or something), then throw the book at them.

[livetofall 0]

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It would be best not to have any drinking age whatsoever. If you take the "coolness" factor, and the "we're not allowed so let's do it" desirability away, then kids will treat it with more respect, and less mysticism.

Does anyone really think a fourteen year old would really want to try liquor more than once if it wasn't so "cool?"

You have a very good point, its been a while, but last I remember Spain has no legal limit and the have a very small amount of alcoholism or radical children. Personally I know after 21 the thrill dissapeared. I think the attitude about drunkenness also comes into factor by culture. I am sure they dont have Budwieser tits n beer commercials either

EDIT: after looking closer..how the helldid left /right DEM/REP.get into this???

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[Lindsey 0]

I think it's a great idea to start teaching our children to drink young. Think.....you'd never have to drink alone. You'd have an instant drinking buddy as soon as ya' pick 'em up from school.

And you'd never have to defend yourself against all that crap they teach in school about the evils of alcohol. They'd understand. They'll be on YOUR side.

Then there's drunk driving. Teach 'em how to drive drunk right from the get-go, and it won't be a problem. Since the drunk rarely dies, NOBODY'd die in drunk driving accidents if everybody'd just drive drunk.

The rebellious kids could start right off with harder stuff...crack. That's where it's at.

I say start 'em young.


linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[freethefly 6]

Jen, as for the legal mj, my stand is that it should be treated the same as alcohol. 21 and over. If the legal age of alcohol consumption were to be lowered to 18 then I would say the same for mj, were it to be legal. I do agree that if it were lowered then much of the allure would cease. The problem that I think would come about is that many 18 yo are not as responsible enough as the same as many adults are not responsible enough when alcohol is involved. Alcohol does lower the inhibition level and people tend to do things they would never do sober. As for if Missouri had the same age limit as Illinois way back then we only would had had easier access to alcohol.
Possibly, this country should had followed the European example when it comes to alcohol and drugs as they have shown that if implemented properly society does not collapse into a drunken, drugged out orgy. But, regardless of age limits, people will do just as they please.
I might add that a friend back in the 70's his parents allowed us to drink and toke at their home. Car keys were taken and you stayed untill the next day. His mom always made a kickass breakfast.
I would be fine if it was all left up to the parents as far as drinking goes in the home but, not at a tavern.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[happythoughts 0]

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In the Netherlands, it's sixteen for beer and wine, anything stronger you have to be 18. It's going great here so far... Weed is also 18, even that is going great...

A friend recently told me that most social travel in the Netherlands is done on bicycles and some public transportation, but rarely a personal car. That changes the effect of being drunk. Falling off a bicycle is different than a car at 50mph.

Anyway, the drinking age in Florida was once 18.
It wasn't all that great. Now it is 21, the same problems exist at a different age bracket. The problems seem to be social, not age related.