PhillyKev 0 #1 June 3, 2004 From an interesting article. • The Philippines: The U.S. won the Spanish-American War there because the insurgents had few guns. Also, with fissures in the revolutionary coalition, it never really adopted the indigenous guerilla tactics of “people’s war.” With 220,000 dead Filipinos and 2,000 Americans, was this really a small war? Today, the Philippines remain rife with corruption and insurgents. • Cuba: Now there’s a great example of the “success” of America’s interventionist nation-building skills. First the U.S. installs its proxy to rule after the U.S. fought and defeated a minuscule Spanish force. Corruption sets in and the rise of the Batista regime ensues, followed by the Marxist revolution and totalitarian rule under Castro. • Honduras: Hardly a great “success.” Also under countries starting with “H” the Journal forgot to mention Haiti, where the Marines have intervened several times, destroying the economy and civil society and plunging the country into poverty under the tyranny of the pro-U.S. Duvalier family. And just recently, Aristide, the U.S.-installed ruler, was deposed by a rebel force. Ask Bill Clinton and George W. Bush about what a great “success” story that has been. • China: Since U.S. intervention in 1900, China has experienced a revolution in which Sun Yet-sen defeated the United States and other European powers, a subsequent invasion by Japan, a major civil war, and the rise of Maoist totalitarianism. Only after trade was liberalized did China become less belligerent and economically viable. • Nicaragua: The Marines in the 1920s made A.C. Sandino a hero all over Latin America for his successful tactics against them. A U.S.-supported dictator, the first of the pro-U.S. Somozas, with the knowledge of the American ambassador, murdered Sandino as he was coming in under a flag of truce. Finally, in the 1980s, the U.S. again destabilized the country by supporting the contras against the Sandinista government. • The Dominican Republic: Like Haiti, with the massive inflation there, hundreds of people are taking to rafts, floating into the shark-infested Mona Passage hoping to reach Puerto Rico. • Mexico: The Journal didn’t mention it, but General Butler did. With the history of U.S. interventionism in Mexico—including the invasion and wholesale expropriation of lands during the U.S.-Mexican War, 1846-1848—pollsters might ask the average Mexican today what he/she thinks about U.S. interventionism. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #2 June 3, 2004 Yeah, that's a complete list. The world is soooo bad off because of us. How is this obsession over "how bad the US is" sustained?So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrunkMonkey 0 #3 June 3, 2004 Quote How is this obsession over "how bad the US is" sustained? ENVY. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #4 June 3, 2004 QuoteYeah, that's a complete list. The world is soooo bad off because of us. How is this obsession over "how bad the US is" sustained? I'm not saying that at all. I'm just pointing out that nation building, more often times than not, does not serve OUR best interests. GWB ha smade some grandiose claims about how beneficial the invasion of Iraq will be because it will bring democracy to the middle east. I think he's overly optimistic in that regard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #5 June 3, 2004 QuoteYeah, that's a complete list. The world is soooo bad off because of us. Out of curiosity, what are the good examples of US Nation-building? I honestly don't remember any, but I haven't been around that long. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrunkMonkey 0 #6 June 3, 2004 Quote Out of curiosity, what are the good examples of US Nation-building? I honestly don't remember any, but I haven't been around that long. _Am -Post WW2 Germany -Post WW2 Japan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #7 June 3, 2004 The Marshall Plan.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #8 June 4, 2004 QuoteI'm not saying that at all. I'm just pointing out that nation building, more often times than not, does not serve OUR best interests. GWB ha smade some grandiose claims about how beneficial the invasion of Iraq will be because it will bring democracy to the middle east. I think he's overly optimistic in that regard. Perhaps it is you that has his expectations too high, with a biased intollerance for Human error.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #9 June 4, 2004 That is the correct answer. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #10 June 4, 2004 QuoteThe Marshall Plan. So.. you have to go back 60 years to find a succesful episode of Nation Building, and all the attempts since then are failures? _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrunkMonkey 0 #11 June 4, 2004 All this shite compared with the deplorable conditions French, Dutch, and British colonialism caused in Africa?? Pot, meet kettle. Kettle, this is Pot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #12 June 4, 2004 QuoteQuoteI'm not saying that at all. I'm just pointing out that nation building, more often times than not, does not serve OUR best interests. GWB ha smade some grandiose claims about how beneficial the invasion of Iraq will be because it will bring democracy to the middle east. I think he's overly optimistic in that regard. Perhaps it is you that has his expectations too high, with a biased intollerance for Human error. Yeah....ok, I'm not the one guaranteeing the success of democracy in Iraq and the ripple effect it will have on worldwide democracy. "Iraqi democracy will succeed -- and that success will send forth the news, from Damascus to Teheran -- that freedom can be the future of every nation. (Applause.) The establishment of a free Iraq at the heart of the Middle East will be a watershed event in the global democratic revolution." -President George W. Bush Remarks at the 20th Anniversary of the National Endowment for Democracy U.S. Chamber of Commerce, Washington, DC November 6, 2003 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #13 June 4, 2004 QuoteAll this shite compared with the deplorable conditions French, Dutch, and British colonialism caused in Africa?? Pot, meet kettle. Kettle, this is Pot. I'm sorry, I must have missed that comparison being made. Can you point it out? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrunkMonkey 0 #14 June 4, 2004 My point is that the US is the least of the offenders when it comes to nation-building/intervention into other countries... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickjump1 0 #15 June 4, 2004 Quote.. you have to go back 60 years to find a succesful episode of Nation Building, and all the attempts since then are failures? I think you can call South Korea a success.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #16 June 4, 2004 QuoteMy point is that the US is the least of the offenders when it comes to nation-building/intervention into other countries... Except for those countries that didnt participate in intervention and nation-building. And again, my point wasn't any detrimental effect on the other countries, rather the detrimental effect it has on us. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,174 #17 June 4, 2004 QuoteAll this shite compared with the deplorable conditions French, Dutch, and British colonialism caused in Africa?? Pot, meet kettle. Kettle, this is Pot. Really? Zimbabwe, Malawi, Sierra Leone... were all in better shape when the Brits were there than they are now. Canada, Australia , Singapore and New Zealand look to be in pretty good shape too. The problems in Hong Kong are all due to the PRC takeover, not due to the Brits. And don't forget that India is the world's largest democracy, a nuclear power, and will likely soon take over as the world's leading producer of software and information services.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Kennedy 0 #18 June 4, 2004 What attempts have there been since then? South Korea might be a good example (success). Where have we been nation building since then? Iraq? Incomplete. Most of what we've done elsewhere has been "peacekeeping." (the most ridiculous role for a soldier in my mind)witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,174 #19 June 4, 2004 You forgot to mention the US role in putting the Shah in Iran (1953) - great success that turned out to be - and the CIA role in ousting a democratically elected government in Chile, leading to decades of military dictatorship.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
PhillyKev 0 #16 June 4, 2004 QuoteMy point is that the US is the least of the offenders when it comes to nation-building/intervention into other countries... Except for those countries that didnt participate in intervention and nation-building. And again, my point wasn't any detrimental effect on the other countries, rather the detrimental effect it has on us. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,174 #17 June 4, 2004 QuoteAll this shite compared with the deplorable conditions French, Dutch, and British colonialism caused in Africa?? Pot, meet kettle. Kettle, this is Pot. Really? Zimbabwe, Malawi, Sierra Leone... were all in better shape when the Brits were there than they are now. Canada, Australia , Singapore and New Zealand look to be in pretty good shape too. The problems in Hong Kong are all due to the PRC takeover, not due to the Brits. And don't forget that India is the world's largest democracy, a nuclear power, and will likely soon take over as the world's leading producer of software and information services.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #18 June 4, 2004 What attempts have there been since then? South Korea might be a good example (success). Where have we been nation building since then? Iraq? Incomplete. Most of what we've done elsewhere has been "peacekeeping." (the most ridiculous role for a soldier in my mind)witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,174 #19 June 4, 2004 You forgot to mention the US role in putting the Shah in Iran (1953) - great success that turned out to be - and the CIA role in ousting a democratically elected government in Chile, leading to decades of military dictatorship.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
