Are Compulsory Biometric ID Cards in our Future?

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Just out of interest, because were getting them over here whether we like them or not, apparently, what is the major objection over there?
The concept of mandatory, or even advisory, national ID cards. Or is it the fact that they will require to be biometric?

I suspect you guys are resistant to the whole concept of ID cards, no matter what form they will take. Is there any founding in this suspicion?

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[mr2mk1g 10]

Well currently in the UK we all hold photo drivers licenses (a few will still be paper, but most now include a photo). If I'm ever asked for ID for any reason this is ideal as it's official and credit card sized so I can keep it in my wallet. This makes it a good comparator for the proposed ID cards.

All it is is a plastic card with a photo and my signature. Now, how easy is it to simply print another photo over the top of this? Or even to print your own with a home made slip of plastic and a laser printer... How easy is it to simply blue-tack another photo ontop? We know it's extremely easy because teenagers do it all the time over here to buy alcohol and to get into pubs. If a 14 year old can do it then so can a crook or asylum seeker.

Biometric ID cards are going to be more difficult because the information is going to be digitally encrypted on a data chip. Now of course I'm not suggesting that this is going to be impregnable but it's an incredible step from a pair of scissors and some glue.

First you have to buy expensive equipment to read the chip and write to it. You'll have to learn how to use that equipment. You'll probably need a PC (roughly double the US price to see how much they cost over here). Then you have to break the digital encription, which I imagine would be no mean feat. Then you have to write to the chip in a way that will not be detected as a fake by the machine that scans it. Now none of that is likely to be impossible, but it is more difficult than before.

I think it important that we keep in mind that the main reason that these cards are being introduced in the UK is to help handle the immense problems we have with illegal immigration at the moment. These people are not after billions of dollars from our banks, nor are they trying to electronically disappear people a-la "The Net". They're not even here to plant bombs. They're simply here to get free government handouts, unemployment benefits, free housing and free healthcare and generally scrounge off of our society. They don't really have the resources to start faking these cards. But they can afford some glue and a pair of scissors.

Nacmacfeagle: that's what I've been trying to do throughout this thread - separate the arguments between having a compulsory ID card, and having one that's biometric. I agree, they are two entirely different questions.

I totally agree that there are serious questions to be asked about whether or not we really need compulsory ID cards. But if we are going to have them, I want them to be as secure as possible, and photo's and a signature simply do not cut it any longer.

People seem to be scared of biometric data in the same way that they might sit in a corner with tin-foil on their head. It's frickin wierd how intelligent people can degenerate into whackos when it comes to a subject like this.

[kelpdiver 2]

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First you have to buy expensive equipment to read the chip and write to it. You'll have to learn how to use that equipment. You'll probably need a PC (roughly double the US price to see how much they cost over here). Then you have to break the digital encription, which I imagine would be no mean feat. Then you have to write to the chip in a way that will not be detected as a fake by the machine that scans it. Now none of that is likely to be impossible, but it is more difficult than before.

Consider how easy it was to crack the CSS encryption in DVDs, and once done, how quickly it spread. Any technology that needs to be quickly applied to hundreds of millions of people will Not be expensive, nor is it like to be that complicated. And the incentives to break it are high - good money for selling fakes, or from those with a great distrust and nothing else to do with their time.

[turtlespeed 226]

It is not a question of "IF?" it is "When?"

The world evolves, and technology progresses - stave off those that want to take your individual rights as long as you can - soon enough they will all be gone.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[bodypilot90 0]

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Evil Conservatives = Oxymoron - PhillyKev

you owe me a keyboard, turtle, LOL thanks pal you made my day. I saw old philyKev, that IS what he wrote. maybe we are turning him, ya think?!

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"I love Halliburton "

Good man, seen my tat?

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[bodypilot90 0]

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Good man, seen my tat?

cool, lov it

[Zenister 0]

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First you have to buy expensive equipment to read the chip and write to it. You'll have to learn how to use that equipment. You'll probably need a PC (roughly double the US price to see how much they cost over here). Then you have to break the digital encription, which I imagine would be no mean feat. Then you have to write to the chip in a way that will not be detected as a fake by the machine that scans it. Now none of that is likely to be impossible, but it is more difficult than before.

Consider how easy it was to crack the CSS encryption in DVDs, and once done, how quickly it spread. Any technology that needs to be quickly applied to hundreds of millions of people will Not be expensive, nor is it like to be that complicated. And the incentives to break it are high - good money for selling fakes, or from those with a great distrust and nothing else to do with their time.

exactly. all it will really take is one techno criminal to break it the first time and your system will be compromised...unless they plan on issuing regular security patches for your ID everytime its broken.....

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[nathaniel 0]

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Just out of interest, because were getting them over here whether we like them or not, apparently, what is the major objection over there?
The concept of mandatory, or even advisory, national ID cards. Or is it the fact that they will require to be biometric?

In a word, revocability. Once someone has compromised your biometrics you are locked out of the system. Since you can't change your biometrics like you can change a credit card number.

Combine this with the stuff being so new that nobody (other than what marketers of the systems tell you) has researched the products and how difficult they are to defeat. Several first-gen biometric products had non-obvious failure modes, like breathing on a fingerprint reader to trigger the heat sensor and provide the previous fingerprint by condensing steam on the observation plate.

What proof do we have that other non-obvious holes don't exist? Why should we feel more confident in computers and biometrics than our current systems?

I understand technology is neat and all, but it's a huge Risk. The payoff for getting it right can be very high and the penalty for getting it wrong can be huge. Certainly a little forethought is appropriate.

nathaniel

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?