jdhill 0 #176 June 2, 2004 Quote There's been plenty of it. What cuold have prevented it? 1) Not going into Iraq. 2) Since we went into Iraq, go in with the support of the world community and UN, 3) Since we went into Iraq without that, go in with enough troops (the Joint Chiefs wanted more) 4) Since we didn't do that, have a solid plan for post combat operations to secure the country 5) Since we didn't do that, provide for a solid transition of power to an Iraqi government. #1 would just make it 100% of the civilian deaths would be at the hand of Iraqis, it just would have been their own government I don't think UN support would change anything by itself, and given the levels of apparent corruption at the UN with regard to Iraq, support would not have been likely anyway. # 3 and 4 we can actually agree on... and there was a plan for #3 which enables #4... Dummy just decided we didn't need to follow that plan. We'll see what happens on #5. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seekfun 0 #177 June 2, 2004 It's hard to take prisoners when you're flying in a helicopter. And, if the pilots let someone go, that someone may simply kill another American. If I'm hanging out with a bunch of combatant radicals, terrorists, or the like, I have to expect that I might get killed because of it. To quote They Might Be Giants: "You can't shake the devil's hand then say you're only kidding." Waving a flag only says, "I don't want to die." It does not say, "I'm sorry for killing Americans or associating with those that do." At best, Mr. Flag-Waver is an imprudent casualty of war. At worst, he's someone who killed Americans and only thought better of it when he realized he was going to die. You: Say again your last, over. Me: Get some. Get some. You too Mother F$%^&R! Get Some. Over Out, topher "...there is a there out there..." - Tom Robbins Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #178 June 2, 2004 Probably why your not behind the stick of a Apache......even your Government has enough smarts to weed out those with that extreme kinda attitude Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #179 June 2, 2004 Quote Yeah....thats what the guy waving the cloth to try and show the helicopter he surrendered was saying as well..... Oh wait...hang on....sorry my mistake It wasnt that it was probably.....'dont shoot ...I'm unarmed' close... I just re-watched the unedited video again, and at no point does anyone wave a flag as if to surrender. What that .5 second "wave" was in the edited video is clear in the original. The guy is unwrapping whatever rpg looking thing he threw in the field earlier. So enough with the "he was surrendering" crap.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #180 June 2, 2004 We have a special place for the extremists. Military Intelligence interrogation teams. That was a joke, people. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #181 June 2, 2004 oh dear..... you might as well make a pro-US version of that vid for the advanced speculation bouncing around about that vid... I didnt even use the word 'flag' lol Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #182 June 2, 2004 Quote you might as well make a pro-US version of that vid for the advanced speculation bouncing around about that vid... Okay... yet another beleiver in all that appears on the net, especially with the pop up captions. Nah, that video wasn't edited to show what the producer wanted, was it? Quote I didnt even use the word 'flag' Don't be naive. So you said he was waving a "cloth" as if to say that he was unarmed. I forgot I was on DZ.com for a second and didn't quote you exactly, which lets you open up a semantics argument. I will find somewhere to post the unedited video. Then maybe you'll be clear on how manipulated you've been. Unbeleivable.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #183 June 2, 2004 Yeah Ok ...knock yourself out Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #184 June 2, 2004 Quote unedited video. here. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seekfun 0 #185 June 2, 2004 Damn man, for a Brit, you're sure getting heated up about this thing. The Brits are normally the masters of easygoingness and understatement. But, that shows the value of stereotypes...no value at all. Just so you know, while I was in Kuwait, I was twice confronted by people I believe were prepared to take my life. In both situations I drew my weapon upon the individual and used the threat of violence to end the situation. Though I would have been justified in smoking either one of them, I did not. So, I wouldn't label myself as someone with an 'extreme attitude'. I will say, however, that I've been in situations where I was expected to make serious decisions about how long other people were to remain on the earth. Have you? If not, I'd take a little more casual attitude toward how sternly you post on this topic. You speak in absolutes, and I question your qualification to do so. All I'm saying is, I've been shot at. I've woken up to explosions. I've treated burns. I've removed impaled objects from brave people's bodies. Have you? To quote Tom Robbins (because I like to quote and I like Tom Robbins) "People of zee wurl, relax..." TTFN, topher "...there is a there out there..." - Tom Robbins Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seekfun 0 #186 June 2, 2004 Quote Probably why your not behind the stick of a Apache (sic) You're right, I don't fly Apaches. I'm myopic and I wear contact lenses that like to fall out in freefall. TTFN, topher "...there is a there out there..." - Tom Robbins Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #187 June 2, 2004 Josh posted it, go watch it. Then tell me how innocent the situation looked and how the guy unwrapping the weapon REALLY looked like he was trying to say "I'm unarmed, don't shoot!"Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #188 June 2, 2004 Quote All I'm saying is, I've been shot at. I've woken up to explosions. I've treated burns. I've removed impaled objects from brave people's bodies. Have you? err...yes...and some more. I dont share this predominantly US attitude to have to 'share' my unpleasant experinces with the rest of the planet Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #189 June 2, 2004 Wow...the unedited version definitely makes it more clear that it was totally justified. No problem here. Good job to them! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seekfun 0 #190 June 2, 2004 Zoter, Then, please, accept my apology. Sincerely, topher "...there is a there out there..." - Tom Robbins Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #191 June 2, 2004 Im not trying to be difficult here....but how the hell can you tell thats a rocket launcher.... jeez could have been some bloody garden tools and maybe he did just want the bloody rag to wave ! I dont here the Crew even questioning for a millisecond what that could be....just ...let rip Its not conclusive...cmon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #192 June 2, 2004 Quote Wow...the unedited version definitely makes it more clear that it was totally justified. No problem here. Good job to them! I'm going to agree with pajarto 100%. (ahhhh....it burns...it burns ). Actually, I agreed from seeing the first video. No matter what my views are about our policies and our president's decisions, please don't let it be said that I think our soldiers should be going around getting themselves killed by stupidly trying to capture a group of guys who are making every effort to unload some RPGs on them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #193 June 2, 2004 Quote Im not trying to be difficult here....but how the hell can you tell thats a rocket launcher.... jeez could have been some bloody garden tools and maybe he did just want the bloody rag to wave ! I dont here the Crew even questioning for a millisecond what that could be....just ...let rip Its not conclusive...cmon I've seen and held plenty of them and that's what it looks like to me. The pilots are probably pretty well trained in ordinance ID also. Also, in that situation, they couldn't very well land, walk over, and look just to make sure. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #194 June 2, 2004 Granted....and one could understand a reaction to that....which is more obvious in the unedited version. However Explanations please for the first and third killing? anybody...anbody..? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #195 June 2, 2004 Quote I'm going to agree with pajarto 100%. (ahhhh....it burns...it burns ). Dude...that must have hurt. Don't worry...it builds character! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #196 June 2, 2004 Did you watch the same video I did? I'll tell you how you can tell it's not some bloody gardening tools. How often do you take your gardening tools, sprint full speed to a field, throw them in the field, sprint full speed back. Then have a discussion with someone that decides he wants to go get the gardening tools back, walks over to the field, then chickens out, and convinces you to go back and get them when your buddy with a tractor carrying more "gardening tools", wrapped in a cloth (to keep the gardening tools warm) roles up. Come on now.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #197 June 2, 2004 I often toss my garden tools (with heat signature) in a field and walk away from them... then I stop the tractor from running over them... oh, and unwrap them when fired at... The object was the size and shape of either an RPG or SA-7, either of which is a threat to a helo... based on how is handling it I'd say RPG though. I think the video in the cockpit is a little better quality than crunched internet video... and their weapon ID skills are probably a little more honed than ours. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #198 June 2, 2004 Quote Im not trying to be difficult here....but how the hell can you tell thats a rocket launcher.... jeez could have been some bloody garden tools and maybe he did just want the bloody rag to wave ! I dont here the Crew even questioning for a millisecond what that could be....just ...let rip Its not conclusive...cmon Maybe they should have let the guy get off a shot that may or may not have killed them. Would that be better. I'm not a military guy or expert, but their actions look more than shady to me. And why would you go for a garden tool just after your homeboy was blown to bits a few feet away from you? Oh, wait, to wave the "cloth" right? Now you've seen the real vid. There shouldn't be too much left to argue.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #199 June 2, 2004 Quote However Explanations please for the first and third killing? How about a couple more vehicles, possibly carrying similar "gardening tools"? As far as I can tell, the threat wasn't neutralized until all three of them were rendered incapable of retrieving a weapon and using it. And that didn't happen until they were all no longer capable of moving. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #200 June 2, 2004 Quote Granted....and one could understand a reaction to that....which is more obvious in the unedited version. However Explanations please for the first and third killing? anybody...anbody..? This isn't 'COPS' on TV. It's war. There's been a rocket placed on the ground by one person. There are other people near trucks where the first rocket came out of. Are you kidding? They clearly identified themselves as the enemy. You respond with surprise and overwhelming violence of action. It's the way you win wars. I say again....GOOD JOB!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
