rhino 0 #126 June 1, 2004 Quote"Chairborne Rangers...We don't lead the way, but we will tell you how it could have been done better, later, while we drink an ice cold coke at the computer!!!" There are two types of people...Those that do the dirty hard work...And Arm chair experts that pick on them. Oh My God!!!!!!!!! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!! DAAAAYUUUUMMMMM!!!! BWahahahahahahaha!! LOL lol Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #127 June 1, 2004 QuoteNot at all. But they had declared war on us and we had tried to take them out. It's war, people die, shit happens. Deal with it. We are dealing with it.. They finished him off.. The apache did his job too.. Well done.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #128 June 1, 2004 Quoteand how you can interpret the holers and yells afterwards as anything other than...'yeah we got him...the writhing crawling man with his back to us'...is laudable. Dictionary.com: Laudable - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #129 June 1, 2004 Maybe it means something different on that side of the pond. You know, like how they're always throwing those whacky "u"s after an o for no good reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickjump1 0 #130 June 2, 2004 QuoteAnd what if he didnt have that grenade...ready to blow himself up? With the track record of the enemy, I don't think it's fair to ask our guys to get close enough to find grenades or explosives. I don't know the circumstances, but I know first hand that after watching people die day after day, you get hard. I don't consider this an atrocity, I consider it being safe.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #131 June 2, 2004 QuoteQuote Either the general knows something more than the video shows, or he is giving an opinion at face value in his capacity as a military consultant. You left out a couple of possibilites: 1) Maybe he's an asshat. 2) Maybe he's pandering to his audience. 3rd option (albeit related to #1) he's a proud member of the 'flag officers with frontal lobdomies' (they are issued at Command and Staff College if your on your way to a star) you wouldnt believe the number of stupid questions and statements i've feilded from general officers..including the infamous "what happens when they(the enemy) turn their lights off" during a breif on JSTARS radar capabilities...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #132 June 2, 2004 Half these critics don't even amount to what Barry Sadler described below in his song "Garet trooper." Most here are arm-chair, air-conditioned, computer geeks who wouldn't know at all what it's like to stick their neck out for their brother-in-arms. It's way too foreign for most of them to even comprehend. So, even though this song is at least speaking of a soldier, however piss poor he may be, at least he's a solder. You could add a verse at the end for all those here who don't have the guts to even make it that far and are content to prosecute the every move of those who do. This is dedicated to the parade field trooper Who never leaves that nice soft garrison and always looks real pretty. Now in the war torn jungles of vietnam you'll find a certain...kind of man. You'll see em' everywhere. He's a trooper. A garet trooper. Yeah, he's 5'4'', 220lbs of blubber. Got a him a nickle plated 45 tied down low. Quick draw holster and 2 bandaleers of brassoed ammo. Yeah, he's a trooper... A garet trooper. He's fought from Siagon to Nha Trang... in every bar that is... and then only with the girls... and he ain't won one yet. But he's a trooper... A garet trooper. He's got a hip knife, a side knife, a boot knife, a shoulder knife, and a little bitty one that's a combination flare gun dinner set and genuine police whistle. But he's a trooper... A garet trooper. Now I run into one the other day. He told me a story. Said he's just this minute come back from 15 days running fight against the Cong. Said he'd captured a lot of loot. You know what I saw when I looked down? A spit-shined boot. Yeah, he's a trooper. A garet trooper. Now a poor old pilot come back today... half his crew was killed... aircraft shot to hell. But he don't say much. He's not a trooper. A garet trooper. And out in the hills, in the jungles, and the swamps... living like a bunch of dogs... are some men wearing funny little green hats. They stay out there and fight for months on end. They don't say much. Cause they're not troopers... Garet troopers. And I'll bet finally when I leave this war torn land... the last thing I'll see will be, though I be in a drunken stooper, I'll bet it'll be a garet trooper. Yeah, they're all over the place. Ain't hardly worth goin' to war anymore. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #133 June 2, 2004 QuoteAlthough we cant see the before ....its very obvious in that video whats going on...very obvious.. There is no pistol...there is no magical crawl towards a rocket launcher .....its simply a critically injured man writhing around....and getting shot in the back. And you keep passing right over the fact that the guy was just trying TO KILL ALL OF THEM. And you keep passing right over the simple fact that it is not easy to go from Rambo to Mother Terasa when you are 20 and in a live and die situation. What is YOUR military exp? I have served in the US Army in the Infantry....I know what I was trained to do, and I also have studied what REALLY happens in a battle...Have you? Or are you simply using CNN and John Wane movies to make these choices? While I was in the Military, I was taught to kill my enemy...Before he killed me. I WAS not taught to disarm, I was not taught to graze the enemy. I was taught, trained, drilled, and encouraged to KILL them. Here it is in English... When a young person is enguaged in a life or death, kill or be killed situation. It is not easy to change from "Trained Killer" to Red Cross Voulenteer. Also, after seeing a few of your buddies killed, burned, mutilated, drug through the streets, hung up and pelted with rocks....You tend to want to kill the guys that did it...Now, no matter how well trained you are...You are still 20, imature, well armed pissed off, and scared for your life. Quotebut when hes's down ...hes's down Again...what is your military training? Rented Delta force five times? I was trained to kill people unless it was a hostage rescue mission. Quote I'll suspect you disagree with the actions of your soldiers in the prison photographs....prob because the evidence is so damning....but wouldnt put it past you to try and justify it in your own eutopian fashion ...maybe they 'goaded' the prison soldiers in to making them pose that way ??? or maybe even asked to do it cause they were bored??? No it was wrong because it was wrong....The guards were in no danger of being killed, they were not still high from a firefight...The guards were wrong. Now, I don't really care that much to be honest...Saddam was doing worse, and these guys were PRISONERS...They did bad things, they were bad people. When some prisoner on death row here in the states gets shanked in the prison yard...I don't care either. Maybe its cause I think they deserve it. Still the guards were wrong. They were there to contain, and protect them...Even if they were bad people. And for that the guards will pay.... Funny thing is I didn't see the world get pissed when SH put people into meat grinders...But they sure did get pisses when some stupid E4 gets her picture taken with a body... Thats pretty fucking funny. QuoteReverse the roles for a second.....US soldier down....writhing, crawling ....and shot in the back by Iraqui militia, who holer and yell 'God is great' or words to that effect with great joy as your man lies dead......now go away and figure out the headlines for that in the Tribune morning edition......'Execution' ? or 'Neutralising a threat' ?.......go figure it out I'd understand it. Something you don't seem to be able to do...I also understand 9/11 and them killing Burg. 9/11 they were attaking us for a number of things...Supporting Israel, invading the homeland, immorality ect. Burg...well he was an idiot. He had an American passport with a stamp from Israel. He went into a war zone and some say tried to play spy.....That does not make either action OK...But I do understand them. Something you don't seem to be able to do. I suggest you rent something else...Next time you want to train up your military skills...Don't rent Delta force....Get Stripes."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bch7773 0 #134 June 2, 2004 oh i hope we don't see any of you all who yell "armchair quarterback!" saying bad things about Bush or Clinton on here. because you've never been president!!! ohhh so its sooo easy to critize presidents from your armchair eh? you get alllll your information from the TV don't you? you've never known the pain and horror of being president, therefore you are not entitled to a bad opinion of any of our presidents. thats the same damn logic. the armchair quarterback argument is lame. give it up. MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrunkMonkey 0 #135 June 2, 2004 Quoteoh i hope we don't see any of you all who yell "armchair quarterback!" saying bad things about Bush or Clinton on here. because you've never been president!!! ... your information from the TV don't you? you've never known the pain and horror of being president, therefore you are not entitled to a bad opinion of any of our presidents. thats the same damn logic. the armchair quarterback argument is lame. give it up. Non sequitor. Politics is a public process. We all should have an informed opinion, and voice it. That's how the system works. The military, however, will be enigmatic to those who never had the fortitude to put on a uniform and put out the effort. If you've never worn the uniform, STFU, civilian, and enjoy the freedom my comrades and I provide... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crozby 0 #136 June 2, 2004 There is a mental gulf between the military and non-military contributors here. The soldiers on the ground are trained to do what we all see on the CNN video. They don't question the morality of what they are doing because they've had it trained out of them. They just follow orders. That man they shot wasn't a fellow human being to them, it was the enemy and the enemy is bad. They don't consider why he is there or how his death will affect his family and friends, or how his kids will cope without a dad any more than the enemy give a shit about them. And to live with killing other men they must by necessity become very good at convincing themselves they did the right thing. Soldiers with too much of a conscience simply aren’t very useful. Violence like this goes on all the time. In 1980 in the UK when the SAS spectacularly raided the Iranian embassy they killed all but one of the terrorists. Hostages later reported that several terrorists had dropped their weapons and tried to surrender but they were shot anyway. The SAS were considered heroes. That was no different to this except that there weren't cameras witnessing the actual killings back then. Today the US troops could be trained to behave differently. UK forces are trained to be less trigger happy, partly because every time a UK soldier killed innocent Irish at a road block in NI there was pandemonium. Political pressures meant they were trained to be more careful about who they shoot. There is a cultural difference too: compare the beautiful speech made by Col. Tim Collins to the ‘Its Hammer Time’ cry made by Vice Admiral Tim Keating – one could easily be mistaken that these two leaders were talking about different wars. It is safe to say that the increase in public awareness of what goes on in war has driven the US to create smarter and smarter weapons in an attempt to keep public opinion on side. So whilst it's shocking when this kind of video comes out it’s also a good thing that the cameras are there. To the soldiers on this forum who keep defending the footage by hollering school yard insults at the others: it would save a lot of bandwidth if you simply said the troops on the video were just doing what they are told, that is after all what your point is, isn't it? And lastly, the general public wouldn't find this all quite so disgusting if the invasion was properly justified in the first place. After all, in Gulf War 1 US bulldozers buried scores of Iraqi conscripts in their trenches and mercilessly bombed the retreating Iraqi forces but I don't recall much of an outcry about that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zoter 0 #137 June 2, 2004 Thanks Jimbo....Im aware of the definition....brainfarted on that post should have read of course ...laughable Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zoter 0 #138 June 2, 2004 QuoteWith the track record of the enemy, I don't think it's fair to ask our guys to get close enough to find grenades or explosives. I don't know the circumstances, but I know first hand that after watching people die day after day, you get hard. I don't consider this an atrocity, I consider it being safe. dead reckoning vertical As previously said...if the roles were reversed and it was a US serviceman down injured....you would all be screaming murder Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #139 June 2, 2004 QuoteIf you've never worn the uniform, STFU, civilian, and enjoy the freedom my comrades and I provide... What a crock. You don't provide anything. You might defend it, but you don't provide it. And other people defend it in other ways. Yeah, I have respect for people who put their butts on the line in the military. But don't think you're more important than you really are, which in no more important than anyone else. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #140 June 2, 2004 You were doing so well... Then this: QuoteTo the soldiers on this forum who keep defending the footage by hollering school yard insults at the others: it would save a lot of bandwidth if you simply said the troops on the video were just doing what they are told, that is after all what your point is, isn't it? No, my point is that 19 year olds in life or death situations are going to do things as they see fit at that time...And that Chair Borne Rangers like yourself who have never been in that situation could never understand. After you have your first close call skydiving...Tell me if you can calmly talk about it....I doubt it. These kids are in life or death situations, well armed, trained to kill, pissed off, and scared for their lives. While I don't agree with the actions...I can understand them. You clearly can't. Funny how all the guys WITH military exp can understand, and all the guys whos only training are the "Delta Force" movies can't.....Seems to me that the guys who have been in the military understand better than you do. QuoteAnd lastly, the general public wouldn't find this all quite so disgusting if the invasion was properly justified in the first place. After all, in Gulf War 1 US bulldozers buried scores of Iraqi conscripts in their trenches and mercilessly bombed the retreating Iraqi forces but I don't recall much of an outcry about that. Here is where you really lose it....So it was OK before? The same act, performed the same way, at the same place...But since you didn't approve of it this time its wrong? Thats two sided as hell."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crozby 0 #141 June 2, 2004 QuoteHere is where you really lose it....So it was OK before? The same act, performed the same way, at the same place...But since you didn't approve of it this time its wrong? Thats two sided as hell. You seem to have misinterpreted my post. Because at no point do I say it was OK before and not OK now. I'm making the statement that the context of the act affects the way the public feel about it - the same act can be seen as OK in one context but unacceptable in another. In GW1 the public were more in tune with the military view of the Iraqis – that they were the faceless enemy. In GW2, because of the dubious reasons for going to war, the public see the enemy as people and they feel sorry for them. It’s a PR nightmare that is going to get harder and harder to deal with. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Trent 0 #142 June 2, 2004 I've been watching this thread for a while now and I just wanted to point out a couple of things. 1. The original post had a link to a completely retarded video that was clearly edited to suit what the producer wanted to show. Had you seen the original (I have) you'd know that it is WAY more than what you saw. It is clear that these guys are up to no good. It is clear that the apache crew repeatedly asks if it is okay to engage. They did not just show up with frothing mouths and unleash on "poor farmers". 2. As for the shooting of the wounded guy... For all I know watching the real video... he could have been rolling out to get a shot off at the Apache. Maybe he was wounded, but it isn't clear what he's doing. He's got enough life left to roll out from the truck and certainly enough to pull a trigger. Now a couple of questions: So shooting an injured man is wrong? If someone fired a 3 shot burst at an enemy and the first shot hit him in the gut and the following 2 in the chest and neck, is it a war crime? I mean, after the first shot, he's wounded, right? Or how about a bomb where the concussion incapacitates the target, but the shrapnel kills them. Are they considered wounded, and has another crime been comitted? It sounds like you either think they should be fighting wars with paintball guns or the only "legal" killing in war should be single shots that instantaneously kill the enemy. And I've seen it mentioned a few times that people don't like that (in this case) American soldiers seem to value the lives of the Iraqi fighters less than their own. OF COURSE THEY DO!! Come on... the very act of war is a statement that one side's lives are worth more than the others. We don't send troops in to die in equal ratios to the enemy. It sounds to me like many people here just don't accept what a war is. I'd bet that not too many people LIKE war, but understand what happens and what must be done when one starts. I'm not military and have nothing but respect for those who serve and have served. I'll never know what it is like to fight a war, thankfully. Thanks guys.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zoter 0 #143 June 2, 2004 Ron...Rhino You are just as much 'chairbourne rangers' (great name by the way....well done) as anyone else here Just because you have some military experience, does not make you able to add some sort of special commentry that others cannot understand. Alot of us post here and dont need to bring up our military experience, to add some valid points. It just gives me an image of you watching yer TV in ya undies ,cammo top and old tin hat....swigging a beer and saying 'when I was in the army...we did it like this" everytime some military related newsbite pops up.... No really you just sound so gung ho about it all....and thats what gets on peoples nerves....Americans,Iraquis, whoever....they are all humans And I never watched those Delta Force videos...cause thats like the American 'Special Forces' isnt it?........nah....not sure I'd learn how its done right from those guys....might be a good comedy film though You've got yer point of view ( and of course its always right isnt it Ron...?)...Ive got mine...how dare I even bring it up eh? Nuff said Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #144 June 2, 2004 QuoteYou seem to have misinterpreted my post. Because at no point do I say it was OK before and not OK now. I'm making the statement that the context of the act affects the way the public feel about it - the same act can be seen as OK in one context but unacceptable in another. And thats NOT OK then but not now?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites christelsabine 1 #145 June 2, 2004 QuoteWe don't send troops in to die in equal ratios to the enemy. It sounds to me like many people here just don't accept what a war is. I'd bet that not too many people LIKE war, but understand what happens and what must be done when one starts. As far as I understood, the original idea of the US was sending in troops to fight against terror, chasing SH, to free Iraq. Now it simply is killing every Iraqi just moving in front of a US weapon, if wounded or not. This is picture I / we see here. Talk as long as you want, this is reality. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrunkMonkey 0 #146 June 2, 2004 Quote*** Talk as long as you want, this is reality. This is the same US Military that whipped the Reich's ass. I would expect a certain degree of socailism to remain... You Euros will pounce on anything that casts the US in a poor light... Good thing we don't give a shit... Unbelievable... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #147 June 2, 2004 QuoteRon...Rhino You are just as much 'chairbourne rangers' (great name by the way....well done) as anyone else here Just because you have some military experience, does not make you able to add some sort of special commentry that others cannot understand. Un Rhino and myslef both served in the US armed forces...So while we may be has beens...We were at least HAS beens...not like you never beens. Yeah it does give us more insite....Just like a guy with more freefly expereience than me has a better understanding of a freefly video, a guy that has military experience is better qualified to understand a military oporation than a guy that gets his military knowledge from watching "Gomer Pyle USMC" on Nick at night. QuoteIt just gives me an image of you watching yer TV in ya undies ,cammo top and old tin hat....swigging a beer and saying 'when I was in the army...we did it like this" everytime some military related newsbite pops up Funny, but combat arms when in uniform you normally don't wear undies...Hence the term "Going Comando". QuoteNo really you just sound so gung ho about it all....and thats what gets on peoples nerves....Americans,Iraquis, whoever....they are all humans And you get on people nerves defending anyone BUT the US. QuoteYou've got yer point of view ( and of course its always right isnt it Ron...?)...Ive got mine...how dare I even bring it up eh? No, Im not always right...But given the choice of listening to a guy with no military exp, and an ax to grind for the US..And guys that HAVE military training...Well Im gonna side with the guys with EXPERIENCE. Same thing in skydiving...If it relates to skydiving, I'm gonna listen to the guy with more EXPERIENCE, before I listen to a guy with 100 jumps or a guy just off of AFF. See if a guy with 10000 jumps says something I tend to listen...If an SF guy comes on here and tells me something about the military I tend to listen... You don't listen to anyone. Thats the big difference between us..."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crozby 0 #148 June 2, 2004 QuoteYeah, from the same US Military that whipped the Reich's ass. You really should swot up on your world history before churning out this tired old line. Two excellently readable books I recommend you take a look at: Berlin and Stalingrad, both by Antony Beevor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites christelsabine 1 #149 June 2, 2004 Quote Yeah, from the same US Military that whipped the Reich's ass. BS - what to compare? What do I owe you? QuoteYou Euros will pounce on anything that casts the US in a poor light... Good thing we don't give a shit... You surely give a shit. and many Americans and most Europeas too. Go on dreaming. let the world judge, the US will not mind, like usual. You put yourself in a poor light. Let's wait for your election. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jdhill 0 #150 June 2, 2004 QuoteNow it simply is killing every Iraqi just moving in front of a US weapon, if wounded or not. This is picture I / we see here. Talk as long as you want, this is reality. Put down your crack pipe... insurgents and or terrorists are killing more Iraqi civilians than the US or rest of the Coalition is... The major difference is the Iraqis they are killing are more than likely "innocent" bystanders... The ones we are killing are more than likely trying to do us harm... on the not that frequent ocasion that an innocent is Killed, it is likely to be a mistake. If all we wanted to do was kill Iraqis, that place would be a glass parking lot now. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 Next Page 6 of 11 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Zenister 0 #131 June 2, 2004 QuoteQuote Either the general knows something more than the video shows, or he is giving an opinion at face value in his capacity as a military consultant. You left out a couple of possibilites: 1) Maybe he's an asshat. 2) Maybe he's pandering to his audience. 3rd option (albeit related to #1) he's a proud member of the 'flag officers with frontal lobdomies' (they are issued at Command and Staff College if your on your way to a star) you wouldnt believe the number of stupid questions and statements i've feilded from general officers..including the infamous "what happens when they(the enemy) turn their lights off" during a breif on JSTARS radar capabilities...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #132 June 2, 2004 Half these critics don't even amount to what Barry Sadler described below in his song "Garet trooper." Most here are arm-chair, air-conditioned, computer geeks who wouldn't know at all what it's like to stick their neck out for their brother-in-arms. It's way too foreign for most of them to even comprehend. So, even though this song is at least speaking of a soldier, however piss poor he may be, at least he's a solder. You could add a verse at the end for all those here who don't have the guts to even make it that far and are content to prosecute the every move of those who do. This is dedicated to the parade field trooper Who never leaves that nice soft garrison and always looks real pretty. Now in the war torn jungles of vietnam you'll find a certain...kind of man. You'll see em' everywhere. He's a trooper. A garet trooper. Yeah, he's 5'4'', 220lbs of blubber. Got a him a nickle plated 45 tied down low. Quick draw holster and 2 bandaleers of brassoed ammo. Yeah, he's a trooper... A garet trooper. He's fought from Siagon to Nha Trang... in every bar that is... and then only with the girls... and he ain't won one yet. But he's a trooper... A garet trooper. He's got a hip knife, a side knife, a boot knife, a shoulder knife, and a little bitty one that's a combination flare gun dinner set and genuine police whistle. But he's a trooper... A garet trooper. Now I run into one the other day. He told me a story. Said he's just this minute come back from 15 days running fight against the Cong. Said he'd captured a lot of loot. You know what I saw when I looked down? A spit-shined boot. Yeah, he's a trooper. A garet trooper. Now a poor old pilot come back today... half his crew was killed... aircraft shot to hell. But he don't say much. He's not a trooper. A garet trooper. And out in the hills, in the jungles, and the swamps... living like a bunch of dogs... are some men wearing funny little green hats. They stay out there and fight for months on end. They don't say much. Cause they're not troopers... Garet troopers. And I'll bet finally when I leave this war torn land... the last thing I'll see will be, though I be in a drunken stooper, I'll bet it'll be a garet trooper. Yeah, they're all over the place. Ain't hardly worth goin' to war anymore. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #133 June 2, 2004 QuoteAlthough we cant see the before ....its very obvious in that video whats going on...very obvious.. There is no pistol...there is no magical crawl towards a rocket launcher .....its simply a critically injured man writhing around....and getting shot in the back. And you keep passing right over the fact that the guy was just trying TO KILL ALL OF THEM. And you keep passing right over the simple fact that it is not easy to go from Rambo to Mother Terasa when you are 20 and in a live and die situation. What is YOUR military exp? I have served in the US Army in the Infantry....I know what I was trained to do, and I also have studied what REALLY happens in a battle...Have you? Or are you simply using CNN and John Wane movies to make these choices? While I was in the Military, I was taught to kill my enemy...Before he killed me. I WAS not taught to disarm, I was not taught to graze the enemy. I was taught, trained, drilled, and encouraged to KILL them. Here it is in English... When a young person is enguaged in a life or death, kill or be killed situation. It is not easy to change from "Trained Killer" to Red Cross Voulenteer. Also, after seeing a few of your buddies killed, burned, mutilated, drug through the streets, hung up and pelted with rocks....You tend to want to kill the guys that did it...Now, no matter how well trained you are...You are still 20, imature, well armed pissed off, and scared for your life. Quotebut when hes's down ...hes's down Again...what is your military training? Rented Delta force five times? I was trained to kill people unless it was a hostage rescue mission. Quote I'll suspect you disagree with the actions of your soldiers in the prison photographs....prob because the evidence is so damning....but wouldnt put it past you to try and justify it in your own eutopian fashion ...maybe they 'goaded' the prison soldiers in to making them pose that way ??? or maybe even asked to do it cause they were bored??? No it was wrong because it was wrong....The guards were in no danger of being killed, they were not still high from a firefight...The guards were wrong. Now, I don't really care that much to be honest...Saddam was doing worse, and these guys were PRISONERS...They did bad things, they were bad people. When some prisoner on death row here in the states gets shanked in the prison yard...I don't care either. Maybe its cause I think they deserve it. Still the guards were wrong. They were there to contain, and protect them...Even if they were bad people. And for that the guards will pay.... Funny thing is I didn't see the world get pissed when SH put people into meat grinders...But they sure did get pisses when some stupid E4 gets her picture taken with a body... Thats pretty fucking funny. QuoteReverse the roles for a second.....US soldier down....writhing, crawling ....and shot in the back by Iraqui militia, who holer and yell 'God is great' or words to that effect with great joy as your man lies dead......now go away and figure out the headlines for that in the Tribune morning edition......'Execution' ? or 'Neutralising a threat' ?.......go figure it out I'd understand it. Something you don't seem to be able to do...I also understand 9/11 and them killing Burg. 9/11 they were attaking us for a number of things...Supporting Israel, invading the homeland, immorality ect. Burg...well he was an idiot. He had an American passport with a stamp from Israel. He went into a war zone and some say tried to play spy.....That does not make either action OK...But I do understand them. Something you don't seem to be able to do. I suggest you rent something else...Next time you want to train up your military skills...Don't rent Delta force....Get Stripes."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bch7773 0 #134 June 2, 2004 oh i hope we don't see any of you all who yell "armchair quarterback!" saying bad things about Bush or Clinton on here. because you've never been president!!! ohhh so its sooo easy to critize presidents from your armchair eh? you get alllll your information from the TV don't you? you've never known the pain and horror of being president, therefore you are not entitled to a bad opinion of any of our presidents. thats the same damn logic. the armchair quarterback argument is lame. give it up. MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrunkMonkey 0 #135 June 2, 2004 Quoteoh i hope we don't see any of you all who yell "armchair quarterback!" saying bad things about Bush or Clinton on here. because you've never been president!!! ... your information from the TV don't you? you've never known the pain and horror of being president, therefore you are not entitled to a bad opinion of any of our presidents. thats the same damn logic. the armchair quarterback argument is lame. give it up. Non sequitor. Politics is a public process. We all should have an informed opinion, and voice it. That's how the system works. The military, however, will be enigmatic to those who never had the fortitude to put on a uniform and put out the effort. If you've never worn the uniform, STFU, civilian, and enjoy the freedom my comrades and I provide... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crozby 0 #136 June 2, 2004 There is a mental gulf between the military and non-military contributors here. The soldiers on the ground are trained to do what we all see on the CNN video. They don't question the morality of what they are doing because they've had it trained out of them. They just follow orders. That man they shot wasn't a fellow human being to them, it was the enemy and the enemy is bad. They don't consider why he is there or how his death will affect his family and friends, or how his kids will cope without a dad any more than the enemy give a shit about them. And to live with killing other men they must by necessity become very good at convincing themselves they did the right thing. Soldiers with too much of a conscience simply aren’t very useful. Violence like this goes on all the time. In 1980 in the UK when the SAS spectacularly raided the Iranian embassy they killed all but one of the terrorists. Hostages later reported that several terrorists had dropped their weapons and tried to surrender but they were shot anyway. The SAS were considered heroes. That was no different to this except that there weren't cameras witnessing the actual killings back then. Today the US troops could be trained to behave differently. UK forces are trained to be less trigger happy, partly because every time a UK soldier killed innocent Irish at a road block in NI there was pandemonium. Political pressures meant they were trained to be more careful about who they shoot. There is a cultural difference too: compare the beautiful speech made by Col. Tim Collins to the ‘Its Hammer Time’ cry made by Vice Admiral Tim Keating – one could easily be mistaken that these two leaders were talking about different wars. It is safe to say that the increase in public awareness of what goes on in war has driven the US to create smarter and smarter weapons in an attempt to keep public opinion on side. So whilst it's shocking when this kind of video comes out it’s also a good thing that the cameras are there. To the soldiers on this forum who keep defending the footage by hollering school yard insults at the others: it would save a lot of bandwidth if you simply said the troops on the video were just doing what they are told, that is after all what your point is, isn't it? And lastly, the general public wouldn't find this all quite so disgusting if the invasion was properly justified in the first place. After all, in Gulf War 1 US bulldozers buried scores of Iraqi conscripts in their trenches and mercilessly bombed the retreating Iraqi forces but I don't recall much of an outcry about that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #137 June 2, 2004 Thanks Jimbo....Im aware of the definition....brainfarted on that post should have read of course ...laughable Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #138 June 2, 2004 QuoteWith the track record of the enemy, I don't think it's fair to ask our guys to get close enough to find grenades or explosives. I don't know the circumstances, but I know first hand that after watching people die day after day, you get hard. I don't consider this an atrocity, I consider it being safe. dead reckoning vertical As previously said...if the roles were reversed and it was a US serviceman down injured....you would all be screaming murder Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #139 June 2, 2004 QuoteIf you've never worn the uniform, STFU, civilian, and enjoy the freedom my comrades and I provide... What a crock. You don't provide anything. You might defend it, but you don't provide it. And other people defend it in other ways. Yeah, I have respect for people who put their butts on the line in the military. But don't think you're more important than you really are, which in no more important than anyone else. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #140 June 2, 2004 You were doing so well... Then this: QuoteTo the soldiers on this forum who keep defending the footage by hollering school yard insults at the others: it would save a lot of bandwidth if you simply said the troops on the video were just doing what they are told, that is after all what your point is, isn't it? No, my point is that 19 year olds in life or death situations are going to do things as they see fit at that time...And that Chair Borne Rangers like yourself who have never been in that situation could never understand. After you have your first close call skydiving...Tell me if you can calmly talk about it....I doubt it. These kids are in life or death situations, well armed, trained to kill, pissed off, and scared for their lives. While I don't agree with the actions...I can understand them. You clearly can't. Funny how all the guys WITH military exp can understand, and all the guys whos only training are the "Delta Force" movies can't.....Seems to me that the guys who have been in the military understand better than you do. QuoteAnd lastly, the general public wouldn't find this all quite so disgusting if the invasion was properly justified in the first place. After all, in Gulf War 1 US bulldozers buried scores of Iraqi conscripts in their trenches and mercilessly bombed the retreating Iraqi forces but I don't recall much of an outcry about that. Here is where you really lose it....So it was OK before? The same act, performed the same way, at the same place...But since you didn't approve of it this time its wrong? Thats two sided as hell."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crozby 0 #141 June 2, 2004 QuoteHere is where you really lose it....So it was OK before? The same act, performed the same way, at the same place...But since you didn't approve of it this time its wrong? Thats two sided as hell. You seem to have misinterpreted my post. Because at no point do I say it was OK before and not OK now. I'm making the statement that the context of the act affects the way the public feel about it - the same act can be seen as OK in one context but unacceptable in another. In GW1 the public were more in tune with the military view of the Iraqis – that they were the faceless enemy. In GW2, because of the dubious reasons for going to war, the public see the enemy as people and they feel sorry for them. It’s a PR nightmare that is going to get harder and harder to deal with. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #142 June 2, 2004 I've been watching this thread for a while now and I just wanted to point out a couple of things. 1. The original post had a link to a completely retarded video that was clearly edited to suit what the producer wanted to show. Had you seen the original (I have) you'd know that it is WAY more than what you saw. It is clear that these guys are up to no good. It is clear that the apache crew repeatedly asks if it is okay to engage. They did not just show up with frothing mouths and unleash on "poor farmers". 2. As for the shooting of the wounded guy... For all I know watching the real video... he could have been rolling out to get a shot off at the Apache. Maybe he was wounded, but it isn't clear what he's doing. He's got enough life left to roll out from the truck and certainly enough to pull a trigger. Now a couple of questions: So shooting an injured man is wrong? If someone fired a 3 shot burst at an enemy and the first shot hit him in the gut and the following 2 in the chest and neck, is it a war crime? I mean, after the first shot, he's wounded, right? Or how about a bomb where the concussion incapacitates the target, but the shrapnel kills them. Are they considered wounded, and has another crime been comitted? It sounds like you either think they should be fighting wars with paintball guns or the only "legal" killing in war should be single shots that instantaneously kill the enemy. And I've seen it mentioned a few times that people don't like that (in this case) American soldiers seem to value the lives of the Iraqi fighters less than their own. OF COURSE THEY DO!! Come on... the very act of war is a statement that one side's lives are worth more than the others. We don't send troops in to die in equal ratios to the enemy. It sounds to me like many people here just don't accept what a war is. I'd bet that not too many people LIKE war, but understand what happens and what must be done when one starts. I'm not military and have nothing but respect for those who serve and have served. I'll never know what it is like to fight a war, thankfully. Thanks guys.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #143 June 2, 2004 Ron...Rhino You are just as much 'chairbourne rangers' (great name by the way....well done) as anyone else here Just because you have some military experience, does not make you able to add some sort of special commentry that others cannot understand. Alot of us post here and dont need to bring up our military experience, to add some valid points. It just gives me an image of you watching yer TV in ya undies ,cammo top and old tin hat....swigging a beer and saying 'when I was in the army...we did it like this" everytime some military related newsbite pops up.... No really you just sound so gung ho about it all....and thats what gets on peoples nerves....Americans,Iraquis, whoever....they are all humans And I never watched those Delta Force videos...cause thats like the American 'Special Forces' isnt it?........nah....not sure I'd learn how its done right from those guys....might be a good comedy film though You've got yer point of view ( and of course its always right isnt it Ron...?)...Ive got mine...how dare I even bring it up eh? Nuff said Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #144 June 2, 2004 QuoteYou seem to have misinterpreted my post. Because at no point do I say it was OK before and not OK now. I'm making the statement that the context of the act affects the way the public feel about it - the same act can be seen as OK in one context but unacceptable in another. And thats NOT OK then but not now?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #145 June 2, 2004 QuoteWe don't send troops in to die in equal ratios to the enemy. It sounds to me like many people here just don't accept what a war is. I'd bet that not too many people LIKE war, but understand what happens and what must be done when one starts. As far as I understood, the original idea of the US was sending in troops to fight against terror, chasing SH, to free Iraq. Now it simply is killing every Iraqi just moving in front of a US weapon, if wounded or not. This is picture I / we see here. Talk as long as you want, this is reality. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrunkMonkey 0 #146 June 2, 2004 Quote*** Talk as long as you want, this is reality. This is the same US Military that whipped the Reich's ass. I would expect a certain degree of socailism to remain... You Euros will pounce on anything that casts the US in a poor light... Good thing we don't give a shit... Unbelievable... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #147 June 2, 2004 QuoteRon...Rhino You are just as much 'chairbourne rangers' (great name by the way....well done) as anyone else here Just because you have some military experience, does not make you able to add some sort of special commentry that others cannot understand. Un Rhino and myslef both served in the US armed forces...So while we may be has beens...We were at least HAS beens...not like you never beens. Yeah it does give us more insite....Just like a guy with more freefly expereience than me has a better understanding of a freefly video, a guy that has military experience is better qualified to understand a military oporation than a guy that gets his military knowledge from watching "Gomer Pyle USMC" on Nick at night. QuoteIt just gives me an image of you watching yer TV in ya undies ,cammo top and old tin hat....swigging a beer and saying 'when I was in the army...we did it like this" everytime some military related newsbite pops up Funny, but combat arms when in uniform you normally don't wear undies...Hence the term "Going Comando". QuoteNo really you just sound so gung ho about it all....and thats what gets on peoples nerves....Americans,Iraquis, whoever....they are all humans And you get on people nerves defending anyone BUT the US. QuoteYou've got yer point of view ( and of course its always right isnt it Ron...?)...Ive got mine...how dare I even bring it up eh? No, Im not always right...But given the choice of listening to a guy with no military exp, and an ax to grind for the US..And guys that HAVE military training...Well Im gonna side with the guys with EXPERIENCE. Same thing in skydiving...If it relates to skydiving, I'm gonna listen to the guy with more EXPERIENCE, before I listen to a guy with 100 jumps or a guy just off of AFF. See if a guy with 10000 jumps says something I tend to listen...If an SF guy comes on here and tells me something about the military I tend to listen... You don't listen to anyone. Thats the big difference between us..."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crozby 0 #148 June 2, 2004 QuoteYeah, from the same US Military that whipped the Reich's ass. You really should swot up on your world history before churning out this tired old line. Two excellently readable books I recommend you take a look at: Berlin and Stalingrad, both by Antony Beevor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #149 June 2, 2004 Quote Yeah, from the same US Military that whipped the Reich's ass. BS - what to compare? What do I owe you? QuoteYou Euros will pounce on anything that casts the US in a poor light... Good thing we don't give a shit... You surely give a shit. and many Americans and most Europeas too. Go on dreaming. let the world judge, the US will not mind, like usual. You put yourself in a poor light. Let's wait for your election. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #150 June 2, 2004 QuoteNow it simply is killing every Iraqi just moving in front of a US weapon, if wounded or not. This is picture I / we see here. Talk as long as you want, this is reality. Put down your crack pipe... insurgents and or terrorists are killing more Iraqi civilians than the US or rest of the Coalition is... The major difference is the Iraqis they are killing are more than likely "innocent" bystanders... The ones we are killing are more than likely trying to do us harm... on the not that frequent ocasion that an innocent is Killed, it is likely to be a mistake. If all we wanted to do was kill Iraqis, that place would be a glass parking lot now. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
