Mirage63 0 #226 June 2, 2004 You guys need to give up, Zoters point (best I can figure) is that they didn't have to kill them - and they didn't They could have flown away - safely. Now someone else might have been killed later....MAYBE.....from what MIGHT HAVE been weapons. But we'll never know for sure. My question to Zoter is simple. Since you have combat experience, you have been there before (but don't talk about it) tell us clearly with the information on hand what you would have done differently. I really am serious, maybe I've missed your post (but this has been fun reading today!) about what you think they should have done! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #227 June 2, 2004 QuoteI think...with respect...we are done here. Sleep well... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #228 June 2, 2004 A good start would have been to destroy the vehicles....namely the smaller vehicle near the truck. This would probably have made man 3 make a run for it (speculation) Take out The truck and train weapons toward the group that undoubtedly would have gathered... Maybe even have kept guns trained hovered toward discarded weapons to make a visual.. (two crew in the Apache ?) A start..... Get some ground support.... I just dont susbscribe to this ...'there was nothing within 30 mins'......sorry just dont believe that Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #229 June 2, 2004 QuoteNobody can say with certainty what may or may not have happened.....that guy walking back across the field is shot....where was his weapon...wher was the immediate threat fom him right there..? The video clearly demonstrates the Apache and its crews ability to completely detroy a traget very very quickly.......so why so hasty to waste man no. 1 oh yeah...sorry he was a potential threat.. That being said....whether man 2 is 'trying' to wave off or whether hes's going for a weapon.....killing no. 1 provoked his reaction wow how obtuse can you be??? i was wondering if this was the video that was shown while i was in Iraq, and yes it can be said for certain, as this incident was followed up by ground troops from 4 ID that verified the remains of RPGs and SA7s in the truck the next morning, but of course naysayer would doubt facts if you tossed the remains on their laps "well how do i know these came from that site??" how exactly do you expect the apache to prevent these men from running off and continuing their activities? land?? if you really have the military experience you allude to, it should be rather obvious that disrupting and destroying enemy supply lines is a key objective in any conflict. These men were transporting arms (yes arms there is this thing called Tac(tical) ID, and pilots and imagery analysts get ALOT of training in it. I do alot of that training) for the enemy, and as such are a perfectly valid target using any available weapon system... if that had been UAV video people would be screaming about how the use of artillery against light infantry targets is unjustified.…. QuoteQuotethe video shows people being killed man....no matter how you cut it, no matter who they are.....the one statement thats not appropriate is 'its impressive' Oh...however horrible war is, there is no denying the skillful "art" of war. And we're good at it! no that video is damn impressive, if you pay attention you'll realize the first time the apache engaged, the tgt was to far away for manual targeting and had to switch firing modes to reach....the terrorists/insurgents never even knew the first rounds were fired.. i dont know where you learned your military skills at, but killing the enemy at a range where he cannot harm you is pretty much the ideal tactical scenero every soldier looks for... its war, people die. chose the wrong side, be in the wrong place at the wrong time and it might be you... i shed no tears for the now deceased arms suppliers..thats more SA's and RPGs that wont be used against us...the truck it self isnt the problem.there are lots of trucks and alot of RPGs and SAs in Iraq...those 6 hands will not be using any of them..____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #230 June 2, 2004 QuoteA start..... Get some ground support.... I just dont susbscribe to this ...'there was nothing within 30 mins'......sorry just dont believe that nice open mind you have there...but the remains were not investigated by ground trooops until some 6 hours later..... minds and parachutes, minds and parachutes....____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #231 June 2, 2004 Bravo... so were all agreed then ..... its definately a SA-7 they were definately innocent They deserved it....even the poor fella trying to crawl away from the truck just cant keep your fingers off the trigger can you guys.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #232 June 2, 2004 yeah....not much point making it a priority right? better to wait until the metal was no longer white hot and the blood had been absorbed into the soil, before going for a 'look see' unless of course some marine had brought his camera with him and wanted a few piccies of the carnage Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #233 June 2, 2004 QuoteThey could have flown away - safely Unless their mission was to avoid contact (ie. a purely recon mission), that is not what they are there for... It looks more like they engaged and destryed a target of opportunity... can I say for certain, from the internet version of the video, what the object was? no... could the pilot or gunner tell what the object was with his on-board systems (at least 10x larger)? Probably. But your right, we won't know for sure. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickjump1 0 #234 June 2, 2004 QuoteI think you have misinterpreted my last post......read back a few to explain the context in which that statement quoted ..was posted I don't think so. The Apache was in a high-threat environment performing a mission (a lot of Apaches have been lost). The crew found themselves getting very personal with the enemy, and reacted accordingly. You don't let people go only to return the next day to kill you. Garden tools/SA7/rpg. Same tricks done in Vietnam. You need to talk to one of you own combat soldiers. Don't listen to that liberal crap. Talk to a combat soldier.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #235 June 2, 2004 QuoteBravo... so were all agreed then ..... its definately a SA-7 they were definately innocent They deserved it....even the poor fella trying to crawl away from the truck just cant keep your fingers off the trigger can you guys.... i really wonder given your attitude if youve really ever had anyone shoot at you?? they were engaged in military activities, supporting enemy action. They were valid targets. good thing your not in charge...we'd have already lost, and sustained an obscene number of casualities to spare enemy lives... a priority??? you have no clue what the priorities and situations are for any given unit on any given night and yet your all ready to run operations to capture 3 gun runners.....yeesh... 3 less insurgents, 1 less arms convoy. no US losses. no large scale operation, a very effective mission. If it were all so easy this conflict would have long since been over..____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #236 June 2, 2004 As posted....maybe its a British thing....I dont feel the need to 'illustrate' my experiences in public to satisfy others curiosity......a la 'Jerry Springer' style Believe what you will. Interestingly...Im curious to your views on the 'second video' of the chap being shot in the back? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #237 June 2, 2004 isnt a matter of jerry springer publicity and i doubt its a british thing as i know lots of RAF pilots and soldiers...i just question how anyone can have such ignorant attitudes about war, its means and objectives with prior service (of any nation) experience.. again it doesnt matter what i believe, but your statements thus far have eroded your credibility with this veteran at least.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #238 June 2, 2004 And I know plenty of US servicemen too.....with varying attitudes to all this Im sorry my 'attitude ' does not 'fit' your ideas of what I 'should' be thinking Other than that...I dont really care how you feel about my credability.....thats for you to have concern about Care to comment on my previous posts question? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #239 June 3, 2004 QuoteKilling anybody shouldnt be a 'satisfying' task I doubt you will see that posted on many Uncle Sam needs you posters. I guess you don't remember the WWII poster "I'll give em hell..."witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #240 June 3, 2004 ooops...thought the world had moved on a little since WWII My mistake...... Maybe you can find some poster from the American Civil war that actually says 'Kill the Yankees...its sure satisfying'...or something like that Go fish lol Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #241 June 3, 2004 Quoteoops...thought the world had moved on a little since WWII My mistake...... We have moved on a little since WWII in reference to patriotism, religion, personal responsibility, duty, honor, work ethic, etc. More so in the negative direction, though. Those men and women from the WWII era have my deepest respect QuoteMaybe you can find some poster from the American Civil war that actually says 'Kill the Yankees...its sure satisfying'...or something like that Go fish Now this is petty. In war and when you're a front-line troop, successfully engaging and defeating the enemy is your job. That job includes "killing" the enemy as efficiently as possible. It's an ugly but very necessary business. You're expected to do it better than the guy you're up against. Otherwise, you lose. You're success in "killing" the enemy saves lives, increases security, and wins wars. I originally used the word “impressive” in reference to the helicopter’s ability to deliver fire and your naïve statements. I also made mention of the skillful “art of war.” I also mentioned “success” in reference to the engagement. I did make mention of “satisfaction”, however, not in reference to taking the life of another human being. I’m never “happy” about seeing or doing that, however, I know that it is necessary in certain situations. I said “satisfaction” in reference to “doing your job well.” More specifically, because, by doing so, it saves the lives of our guys and accomplishes the mission. The enemy dying is just an ugly reality you’re going to have to get over if you’re going to live in this world. I’m “satisfied” with the “killing” of as many of the enemy as possible because it preserves my country and way of life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #242 June 3, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteKilling anybody shouldnt be a 'satisfying' task I doubt you will see that posted on many Uncle Sam needs you posters. I guess you don't remember the WWII poster "I'll give em hell..." ooops...thought the world had moved on a little since WWII You do realize you're being ridiculous, right? I haven't seen any Uncle Sam posters anywhere but shops and museums. Since those posters basically disappeared after WWII, I made reference to that same time period. You would rather I reference non existent posters? OK, let's see if you can follow this little list of things that might make a man feel satisfied. -fulfilled you duty -protected your friends -served your country -lived through a dangerous encounter Yeah, I think I'd feel satisfied if I accomplished all that. If my way to do that were to kill another man before he kills me, such is life.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #243 June 3, 2004 Not that it really matters, but the Uncle Sam - I Want You posters have been used as recently as 1999 (which is when I left Recruiting Command)... they may not be in use today, but you could probably find one on a wall in some recruiting station. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #244 June 3, 2004 Though I'd still wager 95% of the population hasn't seen one in public in decades, I'll take your word for it. MY USMC OSS didn't have that stuff up on the wall. HUGE MC emblem, yes. Uncle Sam, no. Nowadays they're basically nostalgia.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #245 June 3, 2004 Not that it matters in the slightest in regard to the point we're trying to make here but I do have an "Uncle Sam" poster from the late 80's. I agree that it's probably mostly nostalgic nowadays. I kept one as a souvenir. I don't even remember where I originally got it from. My Dad may have acquired it originally. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crozby 0 #246 June 3, 2004 Jaybird I am curious because I have followed other posts where you have defended your faith single handedly against a load of, more often than not, severely offensive, non-believers. Very impressively if I might say! Were you a Christian whilst you were on active service? And if so, did you ever find that your work and your faith clashed? I am comparitively ignorant when it comes to the Christianity - i have never done Bible study, only religious studies many years ago at school and i am not a believer now, but I understand concepts like the "just war". How does fighting in a situation like Iraq where it is not really a clear cut case of "us or them" sit with your faith? How do you rationalise your successes as a soldier, which most likely have inflicted pain or death on your neighbor, with your faith? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #247 June 3, 2004 Let me start off by clarifying that I “personally” have never had to shoot and kill anyone. The times that I came close, I was able to not have to because I used careful discriminating judgment and intimidation. Most of the raids that I’ve been on, due to surprise and violence of action, the enemy never responded with fire. Those that did resist got beat down but didn’t die. I’ve only been shot at once and that was a case of mistaken identity on an allied faction soldier’s part. I don’t want to appear to have more credibility than some here who have been in more serious circumstances. I was not a Christian for the majority of my service. The nature of my job in the military (I’m out now, by the way) requires constantly thinking “outside the box.” It sometimes requires you to consider options that may not always jive with Christian or what some would consider honorable ways of thinking. So, yes, sometimes it clashes and it does affect my actions. It may even personally limit me more than others in some aspects. I personally believe in the cause in Iraq. I personally see it clearly as an “us vs. them” situation in reference to the Iraqis and insurgents fighting against us as well as the same in Afghanistan and elsewhere. Do I feel remorse and pity for the loss of human life in any situation, whether they be enemy or not? Yes, it bothers me. Do I feel justified in the taking of that life for the cause of this war? Yes, I feel justified. A Biblical reference for this might be the life of King David. War is a very ugly but sometimes necessary thing. I also define success when you can accomplish your goal without killing anyone. However, I try very hard not to second guess someone in those situations because every situation is different and no one can really tell exactly what happened except for the guys on the ground (or in the air; whichever the case may be). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #248 June 3, 2004 Well it didnt really read that way....and certainly in the circumstances of the incident...I think the terminology used was inappropriate and deserved something a little bit more respectful Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #249 June 3, 2004 Why debate points that clearly are not an issue? QuoteOK, let's see if you can follow this little list of things that might make a man feel satisfied. -fulfilled you duty -protected your friends -served your country -lived through a dangerous encounter Of course...I agree... But thats not exactly ...the point that was pointed out as being 'satisfying' now was it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #250 June 3, 2004 Quotesorry you feel that way....Im not but do appreciate your debate....at least you are able to do that without taking it to personals.....a la Ron Thats only di to your high and mighty position. QuoteDo appreciate your post of the raw vid...definately shows a diffrent take on it all...thats given up Which now seems to be wrong. Funny huh? You were so sure, and now you admit you could be wrong? But you sure seemed to be against me when I thought they were justified."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
