DrunkMonkey 0 #51 May 27, 2004 Quote...some ideas have no place in the modern society... You should read Orwell's "1984." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #52 May 27, 2004 They do have a point, here - actually. The Canadian hate laws started to come into being in the last 10 years or so. Originally they were crafted to be used against racist organizations like the Klan and skinheads who were gaining ground in Canada during the 80's. The most used parts of the laws cover acts that already would have been illegal. If you kill a black person because he's black, previously you would've been guilty of murder or manslaughter, now you're guilty of a hate crime. The point of this section was to make it easier for police to prove motive, and it gave a handy classification for hate crimes being as such. The second part of the laws do in fact govern what was formerly "free speach". The best example here is that the laws have been used repeatedly against Hollocaust Deniers. People have in fact been imprisoned for distributing anti-semitic pamphlets insisting the hollocaust was a Jewish plot to take over the world. The amendment to the laws will include GLBT's in the list of protected groups. There is controversy in Canada because a lot of people think it is acceptable to say some very mean things about gays. There's an acknowledgement that somehow its acceptable for a priest or pastor to condemn a gay man, even though that pastor would never say similar things about a jewish man, for example. This amendment is an efford by the government to be leaders, which often seems odd to Americans. Laws rarely pass in the US that don't have wide social support. Canada (and Canadians) is more willing to pass unpopular laws in an effort to change society. This is one of those cases. It's true that Canada doesn't have a "first amendment". American Rights always tend towards preserving the rights of the individual. Canadian rights have always tended towards preserving the rights of the group. This is a fundamental difference in the "Bill of Rights" in the two countries, one that is pertinent to this discussion. It's true that this bill would outlaw many kinds of anti-gay rhetoric that's very common in the US. That rhetoric is far less common in Canada. It's true that this bill would infact send a message to churches and political organizations that Gay people are in fact just as protected as Jewish people. Just as a priest can't make anti-semitic remakrs, if this law passes they won't be able to make homophobic remarks, either. Let me be the first to say, this is a good thing. It should be noted that the debate in Canada over homosexuality is far less vitriolic then the US. Canada's largest church does in fact ordain gay ministers, and sanction gay marriage. There are openly gay members of parliament at the provincial and federal level. By and large, this law won't affect priests, because for the most part priests WOULDN'T condemn a gay man like is common in the US. A lot of Americans have trouble with this concept, which is fine. They don't live in Canada, and the laws don't affect them. By and large, Canadians seem to not only accept these laws, but embrace them. Foreigners should not judge Canadian laws with the filter of the US Bill Of Rights. Foriegners should not assume that just because Canadians have Different rights, that they have no rights. The Canadian Bill of Rights was crafted relatively recently by Canadians, and grants them the rights that they demanded. A different discussion altogeather is that I think American rights have been completely eroded over time, and Americans largely do not have the rights they think they do. However, in Canada peoples rights are exactly as they were when the constitution was drafted in 1982. There is no illusion in Canada that hate proaganda is protected speech. It's not. Produce hate propaganda on a scale big enough to get noticed, and you will find yourself in court. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #53 May 27, 2004 I know you have Canadian roots, so I will reply to you. I still think it's kind of funny that a bunch of Americans are arguing about a proposed Canadian law which won't in any way effect them. I mean after all, how many of these Americans even care that Canada exists yet here they are all up in arms because they fear that they won't be able to verbally bash their favorite minority group if/when they visit Canada? Shit most of them couldn't even locate where Toronto is compared to Calgary if you showed them a map with no names on it. Yet they are all up in arms about the freedom of speech in a country they know little about. Hey what's the chance that this law will even be passed before the election next month? It's my understanding that Canada could very well have a minority government soon and passing any law with a minority government is pretty much impossible. So all you "I have to have to right to threaten anyone I want in a country I likely will never visit" people may still get your wish. Now back to the really important stuff north of the border. Can the Flames take game #2 tonight? Unfortunately I won't be able to see it as I'll be in my car on my was up to Twin Falls tonight while the game is in progress. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #54 May 27, 2004 http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1093411;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #55 May 27, 2004 QuoteIt's true that this bill would outlaw many kinds of anti-gay rhetoric that's very common in the US. That rhetoric is far less common in Canada. It's true that this bill would infact send a message to churches and political organizations that Gay people are in fact just as protected as Jewish people. Just as a priest can't make anti-semitic remakrs, if this law passes they won't be able to make homophobic remarks, either. Let me be the first to say, this is a good thing. Why? Why is it a good thing for the government to dictate what you can and can not say in public? Yes, I know, I can't yell "FIRE" in a crowded theatre, however, that's about safety. This law, and laws like it, seem to be geared more towards saving one's feelings than they are geared to safety. QuoteA lot of Americans have trouble with this concept, which is fine. They don't live in Canada, and the laws don't affect them. By and large, Canadians seem to not only accept these laws, but embrace them. The problem is that these laws do affect us, indirectly. When a "civilized" society such as Canada enacts laws such as this, people in other "civilized" societies point to them as an example of what is "right" and demand them back home (where ever home may be). Laws like this one in your country slowly erode people's concept of free speech. Squelch free speech simply to save someone's feelings? What about MY feelings? No one is injured if I stand on a soapbox in the public square and denounce gays, or Jews, or Catholics, or blacks. A few feelings hurt? Probably. But you know the old addage, sticks and stones... Right? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #56 May 27, 2004 QuoteCan the Flames take game #2 tonight? Damn straight they will. It'll be amazing when they take the series, too. Did Awwnold ever cough up on the wager he made when San Jose lost? I understood the wager was for $1000. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #57 May 27, 2004 Quote The problem is that these laws do affect us, indirectly. When a "civilized" society such as Canada enacts laws such as this, people in other "civilized" societies point to them as an example of what is "right" and demand them back home (where ever home may be). Laws like this one in your country slowly erode people's concept of free speech. This is a concept Americans rarely do understand. Yes, Americans can learn something from a foreign country. That's not a bad thing. Quote Squelch free speech simply to save someone's feelings? What about MY feelings? No one is injured if I stand on a soapbox in the public square and denounce gays, or Jews, or Catholics, or blacks. A few feelings hurt? Probably. But you know the old addage, sticks and stones... Right? Again, there are differences between Canadian and US culture. One major difference is that Canadians tend to value the rights of the group over the rights of the individual. This is one example. Just like I lambasted PeacefulJefferey for ripping apart Bowling For Columbine without actually seeing it, I'd do the same to an American who insists this law is wrong without understanding Canadian culture. Canadians by and large DO support the anti-hate laws. This amendment is nothing new, other than expanding the groups of people protected. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #58 May 27, 2004 QuoteYes, Americans can learn something from a foreign country. That's not a bad thing. I don't disagree with that. Not at all. QuoteAgain, there are differences between Canadian and US culture. One major difference is that Canadians tend to value the rights of the group over the rights of the individual. This is one example. Canadian citizens have a right to not be offended? Or is it only certain Canadian citizens that have a right not to be offended? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #59 May 27, 2004 QuoteI haven't given anyone the right to have an opinion on what goes on in My bedroom, so the answer to your question is Yes. Everybody is welcome to their opinion, and can even voice it. . . loudly if they want. But keep your laws out of my bedroom, and gun safe, and church, and medicine cabinet. How's that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #60 May 27, 2004 QuoteOne major difference is that Canadians tend to value the rights of the group over the rights of the individual. This is one example. Draconian much? The question I have is who gets to decide what group is valued over another group?witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #61 May 27, 2004 Quote The question I have is who gets to decide what group is valued over another group? Just like in the US, it's decided by the house, affirmed by the executive, and reviewed by the courts. I don't see the confusion....? _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #62 May 27, 2004 Don't use kallend's cop out on me. The legislative, executive, and judicial branches all approved slavery (valuing white over everything else). Did that make it right? Have you really never seen PCism go too far?witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #63 May 27, 2004 QuoteHave you really never seen PCism go too far? Sure. Is this one of those cases? Well, the anti-hate laws have been around for 10 years, and most Canadian support them. Canada has a pretty good track record of repealing laws that didn't work out. There aren't many people calling for the repeal of this one. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #64 May 27, 2004 QuoteCanada has a pretty good track record of repealing laws that didn't work out. There aren't many people calling for the repeal of this one. Let me know when they repeal that gun registration. I doubt many people will call for this one's head since they think it applies more to genocide than free speech.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #65 May 27, 2004 QuoteLet me know when they repeal that gun registration. http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/05/19/canada/guns040519 QuoteI doubt many people will call for this one's head since they think it applies more to genocide than free speech. Once again, why is an American all worked up about the free speech in foreign country? Shouldn't Americans be more concerned about what is going inside of their own borders instead of trying to change what is going on in other countries (oops ... too late). I may be wrong, but I'd be willing to bet that most Americans don't give a shit about Canada. They know little about it's geography, history and current social values. So why the concern all of a sudden? Or is it that Americans only want to know that when they travel north of the border that they are allowed to verbally abuse people they don't like. Canada is a country of social tolerance. Let Canadians decide for themselves what is best for them (even though we don't always agree as to what is best for ourselves). It's what sets a democracy apart from other forms of government. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerry81 10 #66 May 27, 2004 Dude, careful...I think they might be making a list of countries to liberate next. And since mine is apparently already headed towards Orwellian totalitarianism by having hate speech constitutionally forbidden, I'd better shut up and disappear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #67 May 27, 2004 QuoteQuoteLet me know when they repeal that gun registration. http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/05/19/canada/guns040519 So now they're capping spending at $25 million a year (as opposed to the $1 billion already wasted). QuoteThe Liberals will announce an end to the gun registration and transfer fees on Thursday, though the change won't be retroactive. However, contrary to other reports, the changes will not include decriminalizing registry offences. They haven't repealed it, they've just gutted it. Why would they want to keep part of it, for so much money, when their own provinces won't enforce it and so many people simply did not go along with it. QuoteAlso included in the announcement will be a plan to support police with new technology systems with the creation of three new ballistic information systems that can match bullets with weapons. So they're going out and doing more, even though NY, MD, and CA have yet to solve a crime with their systems. And in the face of even anti-gun California Atty General's report stating that it was a waste of crime fighting funds. Doesn't sound much like a repeal to me.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #68 May 27, 2004 I haven't paid much attention to what the Feds want to do with the gun registration, so I'm really not qualified to be debating that issue here. But is this turning into yet another gun thread or is it about certain people (not Canadians) trying to change things in a country they have no jurisdiction in? Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Keith 0 #69 May 27, 2004 I stand corrected. Thanks for that Most Excellent post Keith Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Keith 0 #70 May 27, 2004 QuoteI still think it's kind of funny that a bunch of Americans are arguing about a proposed Canadian law which won't in any way effect them. Americans have traditionally been a threatened people. They're threatened that Canadian law might spill over the boarder and contaminate our laws. I think the big difference between Canadians and Americans is that Americans tend to make societal changes based on fear and emotion, Canadians don't.Keith Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #71 May 27, 2004 QuoteI think the big difference between Canadians and Americans is that Americans tend to make societal changes based on fear and emotion, Canadians don't. How's that. Canadian legislators are fearful of people getting offended by one's speech. So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #72 May 27, 2004 QuoteCanadians don't. OK - So, uh, a law aimed at protecting your FEELINGS isn't based on emotion? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Keith 0 #73 May 27, 2004 QuoteThis law, and laws like it, seem to be geared more towards saving one's feelings than they are geared to safety. Laws designed to prevent people from being dragged to death just because they’re black is all about feelings and has nothing to do with safey??? QuoteThe problem is that these laws do affect us, indirectly. When a "civilized" society such as Canada enacts laws such as this, people in other "civilized" societies point to them as an example of what is "right" and demand them back home (where ever home may be). Laws like this one in your country slowly erode people's concept of free speech. Thanks for proving my point.Keith Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Keith 0 #74 May 27, 2004 QuoteHow's that. Canadian legislators are fearful of people getting offended by one's speech. You're assuming that I am offended by your opionion. The fact is I couldn't care less what you think. What offends me is when people pass laws to legalize hate. What offends you are laws that are designed to counteract hate legislation.Keith Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #75 May 27, 2004 QuoteQuoteHow's that. Canadian legislators are fearful of people getting offended by one's speech. You're assuming that I am offended by your opionion. The fact is I couldn't care less what you think. What offends me is when people pass laws to legalize hate. What offends you are laws that are designed to counteract hate legislation. I'm not talking about any assumption that you're offended. I don't like hate speech any more than you do. However, I do not believe people should be forced to suppress their opinion (offensive or not).So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
