Deuce 1 #76 May 26, 2004 QuoteIf your hockey team commits a foul, it isn't just the player in the box who is punished. Actually Udeh had a pretty good motivational thing involving lions, I think, for his poorly performing soccer players. Are you talking air-hockey? Like at the bowling alley? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #77 May 26, 2004 QuoteEvery white person benefits from an economy built to some extent on exploited cheap black labor enabled by discriminatory laws. We benefitted from the foul. "Every black person benefits from an economy built to some extent on exploited cheap black labor enabled by discriminatory laws. They benefit from the foul." QuoteConsider AA to be our time in the penalty box. My family never owned slaves. Explain to me how I benefit from today's economy more than a black person does.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelel01 1 #78 May 26, 2004 Get real, Kato. You're asking a bunch of skydivers to solve racial discrimination-- we can't. But I'm telling you that a lot of the work needs to be done internally. AA can stay in place as is; I don't really care. But get back with me in a few years, with results showing that it has not made a positive impact on society (i.e same unemployment rates by race, or different ones with lower overall productivity) and I'll change my tune really fast. Since AA is in place right now, take advantage of it, and prove that it was worth it. Obviously, none of this is directed at YOU personally (except the first sentence), just the race as a whole. Kelly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KATO33 0 #79 May 26, 2004 Oks here is the solution. From this day forward it shall be decreed for the next 400 yrs no White Man Woman or child shall be taught to read or write or attend school of any kind. If a parent is caught or suspected of teaching a child to read the child shall be shipped off and the parent severly punished. All white women shall be the personal sex toys of the Black man.If any white man should disagree or chaleenge this He shall be severely punished and shipped off. I think after this we should all be even steven right. Blue Skies Black Death Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,145 #80 May 26, 2004 QuoteQuoteEvery white person benefits from an economy built to some extent on exploited cheap black labor enabled by discriminatory laws. We benefitted from the foul. "Every black person benefits from an economy built to some extent on exploited cheap black labor enabled by discriminatory laws. They benefit from the foul." QuoteConsider AA to be our time in the penalty box. My family never owned slaves. Explain to me how I benefit from today's economy more than a black person does. Our team committed the foul. Your personal situation has nothing to do with it.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #81 May 26, 2004 QuoteOur team committed the foul Our team? So now it's us versus them? Racist much? Shit, let's just call for race wars right now.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #82 May 26, 2004 QuoteAll white women shall be the personal sex toys of the Black man So to correct (perceived or real, historical or current) inequities between white and black men you'd subjugate white women - ie another group that has suffered from discrimination throughout history? Interesting. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #83 May 26, 2004 QuoteOks here is the solution. From this day forward it shall be decreed for the next 400 yrs no White Man Woman or child shall be taught to read or write or attend school of any kind. Da plane! Da plane! . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #84 May 26, 2004 I thought it was a dwarf on the island, not a troll.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jib 0 #85 May 26, 2004 QuoteOur team committed the foul. Your personal situation has nothing to do with it. Um, you usually go to the penalty box for 1/30th of the game or until the other side scores, not every game for the next 20 seasons. -------------------------------------------------- the depth of his depravity sickens me. -- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #86 May 26, 2004 Quoteyou'd subjugate white women OH SHIT! I'm in charge?! You are ALL my subjects! Come forward for your "gation". Wait. All the women. I never want to see Kallend naked. Ever. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nathaniel 0 #87 May 26, 2004 Quote The entire team plays at a disadvantage to provide some correction for the previous foul. This is where the conspiracy theories start. White folks aren't as a whole in collaboration with each other, and the same can be said of any non-trivial ethnic group. And every ethnic group seems to have some subset willing to collude against all the others. I think one reason AA is subject to criticism is that it's literally robbing Peter to pay Paul. I'm not about to say that's never justified, it's a one-way test the other way. In economics it's called Pareto efficiency. Try to make everyone better off without sticking it to anyone in particular. Collective utilitarianism falls short on moral grounds to many people, I suspect, esp when you get to the part about free will. It's a calculus more cruel than slavery. So here's an alternative: let the market sort it out. If qualified people aren't getting the job from employer X due to discrimination, market theory suggests X will hurt itself by reducing the pool of labor suppliers. Let X and its investors decide if the "benefit" is worth the absolute price--company X's that don't choose correctly will be competed (slowly, perhaps) out of the market by those that do. I know I know "we've tried this already". Well yes, it has been tried before but not by us in this economic climate. I perceive that the increased competition provided by globalization in many industries means that it's much more difficult to afford a staff that excludes candidates on bases other than their proper qualifications. The walls between cultures I think are shrunken in light of the threat of offshoring. nathanielMy advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #88 May 26, 2004 QuoteI thought it was a dwarf on the island, not a troll. Such is the nature of internet forums -- sometimes you can't tell whether it's an honest debate, or just some goober on a fishing expedition. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nathaniel 0 #89 May 26, 2004 Quote I think after this we should all be even steven right. And this would be an example of one of the ugly faces of collective utilitarianism. nathanielMy advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seekfun 0 #90 May 26, 2004 Quote Oks here is the solution. From this day forward it shall be decreed for the next 400 yrs no White Man Woman or child shall be taught to read or write or attend school of any kind. If a parent is caught or suspected of teaching a child to read the child shall be shipped off and the parent severly punished. All white women shall be the personal sex toys of the Black man.If any white man should disagree or chaleenge this He shall be severely punished and shipped off. I think after this we should all be even steven right. No one commented on my Hooters metaphor. But, the point is: Many people today expect others to pay for their failures, laziness, lack of motivation, etc. KATO33, you lost any credibility you may have had when you posted the above. Now you simply sound like someone else expecting others to pay for the fact that you can't get off your ass and get a job. That may not be your situation, but you make yourself sound as such when you say things like the above. I would let it go. You're looking for a 'system', and there isn't one. We're all just piles of atoms arranged by some hair-brained designer called DNA. You can't solve the woes of such piles with a 'system'. You simply can't. Good luck to you, topher "...there is a there out there..." - Tom Robbins Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,145 #91 May 26, 2004 QuoteQuoteOur team committed the foul. Your personal situation has nothing to do with it. Um, you usually go to the penalty box for 1/30th of the game or until the other side scores, not every game for the next 20 seasons. This game has been in progress since colonial times.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,145 #92 May 26, 2004 Quote It's a calculus more cruel than slavery. How long did you spend as a slave? What is your basis for this comparison?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #93 May 26, 2004 QuoteQuoteUm, you usually go to the penalty box for 1/30th of the game or until the other side scores, not every game for the next 20 seasons. This game has been in progress since colonial times. So let's see..... 400 years times 1/30..... that comes out to what, about 13 years and four months? Funny, we've had reverse racism in the system for longer than that, and I don't see any sign of the "cultural leaders" calling for it to end.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KATO33 0 #94 May 26, 2004 QuoteNo one commented on my Hooters metaphor. But, the point is: Many people today expect others to pay for their failures, laziness, lack of motivation, etc. No one is asking any one to pay for their failures what people are asking for is an opportunity to fail succeed whatever but when Black folks job applications are mysteriously misplaced at an alarming rate We have to say what gives?? And how exactly did I lose my credibility I was trying to point out how the Slavery and institutionalized Racism still affect Black people today. Do you believe if you white (any race of people for that matter) people were systematically oppressed for 400 yrs. After 425 as a whole they would be on par with the rest of society Blue Skies Black Death Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nathaniel 0 #95 May 26, 2004 Quote How long did you spend as a slave? What is your basis for this comparison? Ultimately it's a moral judgement so it's going to be hard to find a proper basis. The pitfalls of framing comparisons of utility is what leads many to the rejection of utilitarian standards. Contrast "do no further harm" with "maximize utility via reallocation". Like the expression: when you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is stop digging. nathanielMy advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nathaniel 0 #96 May 26, 2004 Quote Do you believe if you white (any race of people for that matter) people were systematically oppressed for 400 yrs. After 425 as a whole they would be on par with the rest of society Have you forgotten the settlement of the Colonies, and the situation of the people that founded what exist today as the states of New England? I think Britain should have to pay up one way or another for its mistreatment of the Puritans and Anglican Separatists in 16th and 17th centuries. It still affects me today! Or is 200 years not enough? Off the top of my head I can think of a few races of people that overcame centuries of oppression. Consider the Mamluks in Egypt. Slaves from the 9th century on, they captured the caliphate between 1250-1260 AD. How about the Jews, oppressed for 2000 years and today pretty much just like everyone else. nathanielMy advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KATO33 0 #97 May 26, 2004 QuoteOff the top of my head I can think of a few races of people that overcame centuries of oppression. Consider the Mamluks in Egypt. Slaves from the 9th century on, they captured the caliphate between 1250-1260 AD. Im at a lost here what is the caliphate Blue Skies Black Death Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #98 May 26, 2004 QuoteThe AA I'm refering to is Affirmative Action? How do we as a nation ensure that no one is discrimanated against when applying for school,Jobs, Etc. Discrimination of this type is already punishable by law. If a person believes he or she has been discriminated against, the police or the attorney general's office should be notified so that they can investigate. If legal recourse through the courts would not serve the discriminated-against party, why would we believe that an affirmative action policy would? What I mean is, if a company discriminates against someone while there is no affirmative action policy in place, that person could go to the authorities and complain of illegal discrimination. They should be able to get redress in the courts, and this goes the same if there IS an affirmative action policy in place. But if a corrupt and bigoted court system would not provide redress for discrimination, what reason would there be to believe that an affirmative action policy would be adhered to either? --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #99 May 26, 2004 QuoteSpeaking as a white male, I don't see what you white guys are so riled up about. For 200 years the blacks were slaves or treated like dirt, yet giving them a leg up to correct these injustices for 25 years and you would think the Republic was about to fall. When you read enough articles about the effects of affirmative action, you come upon the stories of very qualified white college candidates who did not get admitted to various institutions because minority candidates who did not perform as well on objective college-entrance qualification criteria got the spots. That's flat out wrong. That's a decision based on skin color -- the exact type of thing that historically was done to keep minorities down, the exact thing they're telling us was wrong to do. Now they do it, and the claim is that it's okay because it's meant to help. So two wrongs make a right? --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #100 May 26, 2004 QuoteSince it goes both way what system would you put in place to ensure no one gets discriminated against. You CAN'T "put something in place" to make sure discrimination doesn't happen. Can you put a law in place that will make MURDER not happen? Of course not. All you can do is codify that murder (and discrimination) is something that the law won't tolerate, WHEN it is found to happen. You don't seem to have any ideas to offer, do you? You put the question out there, but didn't offer even a couple of possibilities? I think that maybe the reason is that deep down you realize that discimination, like murder, is something that has to be dealt with once it occurs. There is no preventative measure for it, unless you count teaching kids from an early age that no one should be discriminated against. But affirmative action is discrimination in an effort to undo or prevent discrimination, and as such is paradoxically flawed. --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
