If not AA Then What??

[KATO33 0]

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I'm outta this fucked up mess shoulda never got involved in the first place. I really do know better

Hey Snowflake wait for me.

Blue Skies Black Death

[Kennedy 0]

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OHHHHHH fuck it your logic is so subjective and skewed. It's an absolute waste of my time.

Your right ........there feel better?

I'm sorry you feel every discussion is a waste of your time if you are challenged.

OK, in an effort to keep this thread on track, let's put this in simple, civil questions and I'll answer any you have for me.

(A) How does a 'race' have a 'collective psyche?'

(B) Why is mentioning the suffering of my ancestors "subjective and skewed?"

(C) Was Bill Cosby wrong? Thread HERE


Just an aside, have you ever read Bonfire of the Vanities?

edit: I'm not looking for right/wrong, I just want to know how long I'll be told to sit down, shut up, and suffer the ill effects.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[Kennedy 0]

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Not that you care, but my father did have to give up on being a lawyer because he couldn't wait around for another opening

Then he didn't want it bad enough and whining about it aint gonna make it better

Wait, so another man got his opening because of skin color, so he had to take a lower paying, lower stature job, and your answer is "he didn't want it badly enough, now quit whining."

I really like it when you make this easy.

Black man doesn't get a job because of racism and is now out of a job.

The answer according to Snowflake: "Then he didn't want it bad enough and whining about it aint gonna make it better."

Well, we can agree on that point. I guess all it takes is motivation and self responsibility after all.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[TheAnvil 0]

Affirmative Action is racial discrimination. If you want to end racial discrimination, affirmative action must end.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[Deuce 1]

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>Do you write stuff like that on student's papers, too?

You leave John alone, or he will taunt you a second time.

In the tunnel do you still smell like elderberries?

[Snowflake 0]

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I'm sorry you feel every discussion is a waste of your time if you are challenged.

No just this discussion on this forum

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(A) How does a 'race' have a 'collective psyche?'

I cannot prove that, and you don't have to believe in it. It's like asking you to prove theres a god

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(B) Why is mentioning the suffering of my ancestors "subjective and skewed?"

Did the American Government participate condone and endorse said suffering if so then I would find it relavent. Otherwise I find it to be circular logic.

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(C) Was Bill Cosby wrong? Thread HERE

I'll refer you to my earlier post that you replied to

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As far as the whole racisim vs Black determination I think the awnser is in the middle and neither side wants to admit their faults. Whites don't want to admit racisim and will happily grab on to any data proving otherwise. Blacks don't want to admit their own resposibility and will happily grab onto any data proving otherwise. It's a combination of both but good luck getting either side to truly admit it.

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Just an aside, have you ever read Bonfire of the Vanities?

Nope

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edit: I'm not looking for right/wrong, I just want to know how long I'll be told to sit down, shut up, and suffer the ill effects.

I feel for ya. I mean here I sit in my luxurious mansion. That my cushy job that I'm not qualified to do paid for. I got the job by graduating college at UNT, the only reason I graduated is because I'm black. Police treat me nice cause I'm black. Security guards don't follow me around stores cause I'm black. Cute little four year old girls don't call me nigger to the embaressment of their mothers. Nope the life of a black man in this country is awesome everything is just handed to you on a plate. People don't deny me housing because of my color. I don't get hit or harrassed for dating a white woman. The media portrays black people as intelligent do gooders most of the time.

Yep you sure have it tough and I have it so easy.

[Snowflake 0]

This was snide and I probably shouldn't have said it but the voice and tone was how I imagine you would've responded and I see that I was pretty close to the mark

[diablopilot 2]

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Life isn't fair. Deal with it.

Exactly. I love it when someone gets my point.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

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Read it again - it's about propagation of advantage vs disadvantage.

AA is about correcting for 2+ centuries of disadvantage. It WILL take more than a generation.

And hey, I didn't ask Prescott B. do do business with Nazis - don't blame me for the source of the family fortune. I don't like Joe Kennedy either - sleazball should have been shot for treason alongside Prescott.

Funny to hear a Brits comments on this subject (no offence intended, My mother is one) but when are the Brits gonna make reperations for friggin occupying and oppressing half the planet?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

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Equality means balance.

Ummm......

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e·qual·i·ty
The state or quality of being equal.
Mathematics. A statement, usually an equation, that one thing equals another.


[Middle English equalite, from Old French, from Latin aequlits, from aequlis, equal. See equal.]

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.



equality

\E*qual"i*ty\, n.; pl. Equalities. [L. aequalitas, fr. aequalis equal. See Equal.] 1. The condition or quality of being equal; agreement in quantity or degree as compared; likeness in bulk, value, rank, properties, etc.; as, the equality of two bodies in length or thickness; an equality of rights.


2. Sameness in state or continued course; evenness; uniformity; as, an equality of temper or constitution.

3. Evenness; uniformity; as, an equality of surface.

4. (Math.) Exact agreement between two expressions or magnitudes with respect to quantity; -- denoted by the symbol =; thus, a = x signifies that a contains the same number and kind of units of measure that x does.

Confessional equality. See under Confessional.


Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.


equality

n 1: the quality or state of being the same in quantity or measure or value or status [ant: inequality] 2: a state of essential equality or equivalence: "on a par with the best" [syn: equivalence, par]


Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University

So this statement:

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So, yes, if we are to see blacks as equal to whites, then whites will lose some advantages that they have traditionally had over blacks.

is a load of rubbish....



And just so we know what were talking about:

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dis·crim·i·na·tion (d-skrm-nshn)
n.
The act of discriminating.
The ability or power to see or make fine distinctions; discernment.
Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice: racial discrimination; discrimination against foreigners.


Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.



discrimination

\Dis*crim`i*na"tion\, n. [L. discriminatio the contrasting of opposite thoughts.] 1. The act of discriminating, distinguishing, or noting and marking differences.

To make an anxious discrimination between the miracle absolute and providential. --Trench.

2. The state of being discriminated, distinguished, or set apart. --Sir J. Reynolds.

3. (Railroads) The arbitrary imposition of unequal tariffs for substantially the same service.

A difference in rates, not based upon any corresponding difference in cost, constitutes a case of discrimination. --A. T. Hadley.

4. The quality of being discriminating; faculty of nicely distinguishing; acute discernment; as, to show great discrimination in the choice of means.

5. That which discriminates; mark of distinction.

Syn: Discernment; penetration; clearness; acuteness; judgment; distinction. See Discernment.


Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.


discrimination

n 1: unfair treatment of a person or group on the basis of prejudice [syn: favoritism, favouritism] 2: the cognitive process whereby differences between two or more stimuli are perceived


Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University

Seems to fit the description of the current state of AA.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

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My family never owned slaves.

Explain to me how I benefit from today's economy more than a black person does.

No shit. None of my family was in this country as of 2 generations ago. What did I (or my ancestors) do? Huh?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Deuce 1]

They created you, my freaky brother. And there just isn't enough money....

[diablopilot 2]

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Our team committed the foul. Your personal situation has nothing to do with it.

Whata blatently discriminitory statement. It's thinking like this that perpetuates the rift between the "Races" biology, and time will probably serve to homoginize the barrier if we don't destroy ourselves first. Why hold on to the grudge/guilt?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

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Funny, we've had reverse racism in the system for longer than that, and I don't see any sign of the "cultural leaders" calling for it to end.

If racisim ends, they're out of a job......

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

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You sure do love to spout of about the rights the "founding fathers" gave you etc, but you sure do hate when you have to pay for their sins.

What kind of crap is that? So now it's about punishment? Do you spank your dog 2 day AFTER it craps in the house?

See the definition of EQUALITY.

I'd say it is now more of an insult and a huge disservice to force a new generation to believe the tripe about them being disadvantaged. It serves to kill any successes before they have begun. That's what AA is doing now. Breaking spirits on both sides of a rift while reinforcing a rift that should be closed by now.

Keep picking at the scab though, it might heal, but not without a scar....

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"when are the Brits gonna make reperations for friggin occupying and oppressing half the planet?"

I personally pledge to make reparations to Deuce by procuring fine ales, entertainment, and offering hospitality when he comes to visit.
I reckon we should actually be charging you consultancy fees for a system of government, a legal system, and our language. We will also be charging the rest of the world back dated license agreements on the use of British inventions.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[TomAiello 26]

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No shit. None of my family was in this country as of 2 generations ago. What did I (or my ancestors) do? Huh?

Ditto.

I'm curious what my Filipino grandmother did in her first 25 years, in Manila, that makes me somehow culpable for the crimes of the "White Man" here in the U.S. The same question arises when considering two of my other grandparents.

Hmmm. Collectivism breaks down real fast when folks start migrating and groups start intermarrying.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[PhillyKev 0]

The whole point that has you guys riled up is based on perception. You perceive it as "punishing the white man". That's not the purpose. The purpose is to elevate the black man to the point that the racial discrimination that exists is irrelevant to their abiility to achieve the American dream of having an equal chance to succeed.

Whites have an advantage in life, it is a fact. You guys are bitching because we might lose that advantage. You're bashing the blacks for "whining about inequality", meanwhile you're whining about losing your advantage due to that inequality.

[TomAiello 26]

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Whites have an advantage in life, it is a fact.

The fact that any individual is in a disadvantaged position is insufficient grounds for government action. In my mind, for the government to act requires _much_ more justification than a simple social engineering agenda.

Once you invoke the government to redress perceived social wrongs, you open the door for a whole slew of other government activities, all of them (again, in my opinion) unnecessary.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[PhillyKev 0]

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Whites have an advantage in life, it is a fact.

The fact that any individual is in a disadvantaged position is insufficient grounds for government action. In my mind, for the government to act requires _much_ more justification than a simple social engineering agenda.

Once you invoke the government to redress perceived social wrongs, you open the door for a whole slew of other government activities, all of them (again, in my opinion) unnecessary.

You know what, Tom, I appreciate your view point about the role of gov't. Thank you for not taking the stance of others that there IS nothing wrong. I can understand someone not thinking this is the right way to fix a problem. What I don't get is people who think there is no problem with discrimination against blacks.

[rehmwa 2]

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Or, how about this, we can end AA immediately if this is implemented. All job interviews or college entrance exams must be conducted in a manner that makes it impossible to determine race. . .

OK Kev, here's another for that one too

Problem is, the above solution (which is the best way to get the point across) is strictly in opposition to AA.

There is a problem that needs to be fixed. The AA policies are antithetical to it and have seriously hindered the solution.

One person at a time is the only way and it's by choosing how we act daily. Laws only work also if they are colorblind (color, sex, etc). and it's not naive to try to be colorblind, but it's a choice to refuse to at least try to.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 2,114]

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Read it again - it's about propagation of advantage vs disadvantage.

AA is about correcting for 2+ centuries of disadvantage. It WILL take more than a generation.

And hey, I didn't ask Prescott B. do do business with Nazis - don't blame me for the source of the family fortune. I don't like Joe Kennedy either - sleazball should have been shot for treason alongside Prescott.

Funny to hear a Brits comments on this subject (no offence intended, My mother is one) but when are the Brits gonna make reperations for friggin occupying and oppressing half the planet?

Sometime around 1948.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,114]

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Or, how about this, we can end AA immediately if this is implemented. All job interviews or college entrance exams must be conducted in a manner that makes it impossible to determine race. . .

OK Kev, here's another for that one too

Problem is, the above solution (which is the best way to get the point across) is strictly in opposition to AA.

There is a problem that needs to be fixed. The AA policies are antithetical to it and have seriously hindered the solution.

One person at a time is the only way and it's by choosing how we act daily. Laws only work also if they are colorblind (color, sex, etc). and it's not naive to try to be colorblind, but it's a choice to refuse to at least try to.

AA is a poor solution but it is a solution and is the only solution that has been politically palatable.

The K-12 education system is still unequal and badly needs to be fixed, but fixing that is political suicide.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[KATO33 0]

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The fact that any individual is in a disadvantaged position is insufficient grounds for government action. In my mind, for the government to act requires _much_ more justification than a simple social engineering agenda.

Why shouldn't the Government get involved The Government was involved when it allowed Racism & Oppression to go unchecked and some cases actually nurtured it.

Blue Skies Black Death

[diablopilot 2]

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The whole point that has you guys riled up is based on perception. You perceive it as "punishing the white man". That's not the purpose.

No what's got me riled up is the BS semantics that is being used here. I don't see in my life how AA has hurt me.

Point 1) the word equality is being thrown about incorectly.

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The purpose is to elevate the black man to the point that the racial discrimination that exists is irrelevant to their abiility to achieve the American dream of having an equal chance to succeed.

This IS NOT equality. It's someones concept of evening the odds, or leveling the playing field.

Point 2) AA had a useful life. It's done. Now rather than empowering people it's knocking them down before they have a chance to stand up, and I'm talking about the people you're suggesting it's suposed to protect/enable.

If you take a white kid from a low income family and tell him since he's poor he can't amount to anything, and expose him to media that says the same, has role models that make him think that's his lot in life, well guess what? He'll live up to that poor example.

Same for a black kid. If you continue to ram the fact that he's dissadvantaged down his throat all day, he'll begin to believe it. By the same token it is unfair to give a person a boost all the time. In succesive generations the "boost" will always be expected, and needed, forcing the persons to become even furthur disadvantaged.



"They're called bootstraps, you're suposed to pull on 'em."

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.