If not AA Then What??

[PhillyKev 0]

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All discrimination....Of course its OK cause you say it is OK. But it is still discrimination.

Discrimination exists in every aspect of every society in some form or another. The question is, does a particular form of discrimination adversely affect an entire group of the population as a whole in comparison to other groups. Or does it level the playing field for the group as a whole?

Like I said above. When dealing with social policy and society as a whole, there have to be compromises. Is it better to do nothing and allow a group to be adversely affected, or is it better to help level the playing field even though some people who previously had an advantage are now adversely affected?

For society, as a whole, and for the social fabric of the nation, I contend that having equitable opportunities for all races is necessary because of the institutional racism that exists. If there weren't a huge advantage for whites it wouldn't be necessary. But there is, in almost every aspect of society. From lending practices, to insurability, to educational funding, blacks are at a disadvantage still today. No matter how enlightened some white people may think they are, and how fair they are, they're not seeing what really goes on in society.

Does it suck that there is AA, and welfare used primarily by minorities, and other social programs that mostly benefit minorities? Yes, it does. But until we can honestly look at society and say that they have the same fair chance as everyone else in every way, it has to be that way to protect the fabric of society as a whole.

You want to bring about revolution, race and class warfare? No problem, just elliminate the social programs that benefit minorities. Someone who doesn't see the big picture will say they just need to try harder. Someone who knows what they are going through will say, why are tehy being punished because of their skin color.

Yes, I'm saying that it is unfair to minorities not to have social programs that benefit them. And the reason is because if left to its own devices, the rest of society would be overwhelmingly discriminatory.

[Ron 10]

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AA is about correcting for 2+ centuries of disadvantage. It WILL take more than a generation.

So its OK to hurt me to help others just because of something that happened 200 years ago that none of my family had anything to do with? Oh, and one of my great, great uncles died fighting the south.....So where is my reward?

And I would have to venture that the blacks in this country have a much better life than if there families had never been brought over....That does not excuse it, but why punish me for something I have never done...

Oh, thats right its OK to punish the White, Middle class, Male...Its the only race/sex that its OK to make fun of, and discriminate against.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[PhillyKev 0]

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So its OK to hurt me to help others just because of something that happened 200 years ago that none of my family had anything to do with? Oh, and one of my great, great uncles died fighting the south.....So where is my reward?

Discrimination occurs today. There are a couple of generations of blacks still around who couldn't go in white bathrooms, or use white water fountains, let alone have an equal opportunity for an education or job experience.

Yes, it's ok to make it a little harder for white people to get a job than it would be if they were allowed to still discriminate against blacks. Equality means balance. So, yes, if we are to see blacks as equal to whites, then whites will lose some advantages that they have traditionally had over blacks. I'm sorry that you're upset about not being able to benefit from racial inequality as much.

[skybytch 273]

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Oh, thats right its OK to punish the White, Middle class, Male...Its the only race/sex that its OK to make fun of, and discriminate against.

Other than the NBA thing, how exactly have you been discriminated against?

I am a white female. I was fired from a job in a predominantly "male" field and replaced with a white male. The reason they gave was that I was making "too many" mistakes. Strangely enough, that was the exact same reason my replacement had been fired from his previous position, but since he had a penis and I didn't, well then obviously he was the better person for the job. I was told later by several people who still worked there that he was screwing up twice as often as I had. He was still there three years later.

But despite that - I'm not in favor of AA. I think the most qualified person should get a job, regardless of their race, gender, sexual orientation, social status, etc.

If I'm looking to hire a new employee, I'm going to hire the person that I feel is most likely to do the job well. I could care less if that person is a white straight male, a black female homosexual or an HIV positive Chinese transexual. If the white straight male has a rigger's ticket and the others don't - I'm gonna hire the white straight male since he can do more in the job than the others can. If all of them have the same qualifications I'm going to hire the one that - in my flawed opinion - is most likely to stick around for awhile.

I'm also going to consider which of the applicants is going to be easiest to get along with (okay, to be more honest, which one is most likely to put up with my shit ).

Luckily for me, my business is far too small to be affected by AA. At least I hope it is. I guess I better check into that...

[Deuce 1]

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You are living in Cloud-Cuckoo Land.

Do you write stuff like that on student's papers, too?

I thought academia was an ivory tower, not that one with the badly accented French guys teasing the English Ka-niggits.

"It's the Colonel, with his wee beady eyes, who puts the secret ingredient in the chicken that makes you crave it fortnightly!"

It's the pentaverate, John, you will be assimilated.

[Ron 10]

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Yes, it's ok to make it a little harder for white people to get a job

Oh geeze no wonder your a leftie. Lets give to those who don't want to work as hard.

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Equality means balance

No it does not:

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Equality

\E*qual"i*ty\, n.; pl. Equalities. [L. aequalitas, fr. aequalis equal. See Equal.] 1. The condition or quality of being equal; agreement in quantity or degree as compared; likeness in bulk, value, rank, properties, etc.; as, the equality of two bodies in length or thickness; an equality of rights.

A footing of equality with nobles. --Macaulay.

2. Sameness in state or continued course; evenness; uniformity; as, an equality of temper or constitution.

3. Evenness; uniformity; as, an equality of surface.

4. (Math.) Exact agreement between two expressions or magnitudes with respect to quantity; -- denoted by the symbol =; thus, a = x signifies that a contains the same number and kind of units of measure that x does.

Where does it say BALANCE?

Its not EQUAL if you have to take away from one to give to another.

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I'm sorry that you're upset about not being able to benefit from racial inequality as much.

Oh thats such crap...I don't like discrimination in ANY form, you favor discrimination as long as it goes one way (and its the way you approve of).

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[KATO33 0]

A lot of people are chiming in but not many people are answering the oringinal ? If not AA them what.
What system do we put in place to ensure no one is discriminated against???? I really want to know

Blue Skies Black Death

[skybytch 273]

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What system do we put in place to ensure no one is discriminated against????

I dunno. I don't think there is a "system" that will be "fair" to everyone, and I'm not sure that "fairness" is what we really need or want. Someone is always going to feel that they were discriminated against - even if whatever it is that makes them "different" had no bearing on them getting a particular job or not.

We can't correct history. Blacks, women and many groups of immigrants have been categorically discriminated against throughout the history of the US; anyone who denies that isn't reading very deep into their history books. We can change the future but it won't happen fast, it won't be easy and it will require that those who belong to groups that have been "traditionally" discriminated against make some changes in not only themselves but also in their communities.

Even a child of a non-white single mother of four living in the projects who attends a "poor" inner city school can do whatever s/he can dream of if s/he will only work for it. They only need to be shown the way. Perhaps that's where we've failed - we aren't teaching young women, blacks, Mexicans, "economically disadvantaged," etc, how to turn their dreams into reality - or in some cases, even how to dream.

[lawrocket 3]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that everyone has a chance in this country. Not everyone has the same chance, though.

Both sides of a coin are equally qualified to land up. If I flip a penny 10 times and it comes up heads seven times, I don't think the penny is bigoted against the tails.

Under Affirmative Action, said penny would be banned from coming up heads again until the imbalance is corrected. This is somewhat impossible and challenges results by fixing blame where it may not exist.

THis is the problem with it, in my book.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 2,115]

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AA is about correcting for 2+ centuries of disadvantage. It WILL take more than a generation.

So its OK to hurt me to help others just because of something that happened 200 years ago that none of my family had anything to do with? Oh, and one of my great, great uncles died fighting the south.....So where is my reward?

And I would have to venture that the blacks in this country have a much better life than if there families had never been brought over....That does not excuse it, but why punish me for something I have never done...

Oh, thats right its OK to punish the White, Middle class, Male...Its the only race/sex that its OK to make fun of, and discriminate against.

Ron, it happened 250 years ago AND 200 years ago AND 150 years ago AND 100 years ago AND...

Brown vs Board was decided 50 years ago. Segregated buses and public accommodations continued after that. Chicago STILL has segregated schools because the whites all fled to the suburbs. It is a documented FACT that less money is spent on predominantly black public schools than on white public schools in Illinois.

I'm a middle class white male, and so are all my 4 sons, and NONE of our ancestors benefited one iota from 250+ years of segregation 'cos they weren't even in the country. I still think AA is an appropriate response.

If a serial killer said "OK, I've stopped killing, now free me" would you think that the victims' families would have been appropriately treated? Well, that's how I view the right's response to discrimination: "OK, we've let you vote and get on our buses, now shut up and get on with it".

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,115]

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You are living in Cloud-Cuckoo Land.

Do you write stuff like that on student's papers, too?

This is Speakers' Corner, not a classroom.

You wouldn't understand what I write on students' papers, unless you are good at quantum mechanics.

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I thought academia was an ivory tower, not that one with the badly accented French guys teasing the English Ka-niggits.

"It's the Colonel, with his wee beady eyes, who puts the secret ingredient in the chicken that makes you crave it fortnightly!"

It's the pentaverate, John, you will be assimilated.

Bring me a shrubbery.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Kennedy 0]

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So you think its OK to have government sponsored Racism as long as it benefits minorities?

Since institutionalized racism exists, yes, I do think it is ok. If it didn't then it wouldn't be.

So you hope to fight racism with more racism?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Ron 10]

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Ron, it happened 250 years ago AND 200 years ago AND 150 years ago AND 100 years ago AND...

OK still older than me, you, my Dad, and his Dad.

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Brown vs Board was decided 50 years ago

Ok still older than me.

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Segregated buses and public accommodations continued after that.

Did I drive the busses? Did I make the policies? Nope.

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Chicago STILL has segregated schools because the whites all fled to the suburbs.

Ther are no segregated, but they are not bussed out of area either...Memphis had a stupid idea years ago where a % of blacks and whites needed to be at each school. so they busses some kids into the city while they bussed others out. What a stupid idea that was....

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I'm a middle class white male, and so are all my 4 sons, and NONE of our ancestors benefited one iota from 250+ years of segregation 'cos they weren't even in the country. I still think AA is an appropriate response.

And I don't think one form of racism is better than another.

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If a serial killer said "OK, I've stopped killing, now free me" would you think that the victims' families would have been appropriately treated?

There is a big difference here. Would you punish his Son for what his Dad did? How about his Grandson?

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Well, that's how I view the right's response to discrimination: "OK, we've let you vote and get on our buses, now shut up and get on with it".

My response is "OK, now we will treat you EQUAL, don't expect to be treated SPECIAL"

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[skydyvr 0]

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A lot of people are chiming in but not many people are answering the oringinal ? If not AA them what.
What system do we put in place to ensure no one is discriminated against???? I really want to know

A fair and effective system can only occur when our culture matures to the point that racial differences truly aren't of concern to most people. When diversity in the workplace is truly appreciated, we'll be there.

And looking at the progress we've made in the last 50 years, I believe we are on the way. Maybe 50 more years will do it.

. . =(_8^(1)

[KATO33 0]

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Under Affirmative Action, said penny would be banned from coming up heads again until the imbalance is corrected. This is somewhat impossible and challenges results by fixing blame where it may not exist.

Then What system do we put in place to ensure no one is discriminated against?

Blue Skies Black Death

[Kennedy 0]

Punishment for those who discriminate.

Don't punish me for someone else's idiocy.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[kallend 2,115]

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I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that everyone has a chance in this country. Not everyone has the same chance, though.

Both sides of a coin are equally qualified to land up. If I flip a penny 10 times and it comes up heads seven times, I don't think the penny is bigoted against the tails.

Under Affirmative Action, said penny would be banned from coming up heads again until the imbalance is corrected. This is somewhat impossible and challenges results by fixing blame where it may not exist.

THis is the problem with it, in my book.

I take it you haven't studied the Bakke vs U of California case?

Requiring pennies to come up heads a certain quota of times is NOT allowed. You are misprepresenting AA.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[KATO33 0]

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My response is "OK, now we will treat you EQUAL, don't expect to be treated SPECIAL"

How do you ensure the equal treatment or should we just take your word for it.

Blue Skies Black Death

[lawrocket 3]

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Then What system do we put in place to ensure no one is discriminated against?

I'd fear a system where nobody was discriminated against. The only way to ensure "equality" is "equal misery for all."

I'm afraid the gubment likes that system.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[KATO33 0]

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A fair and effective system can only occur when our culture matures to the point that racial differences truly aren't of concern to most people. When diversity in the workplace is truly appreciated, we'll be there.

So we should wait and do nothing let the country's culture mature.

Blue Skies Black Death

[lawrocket 3]

Yeah, I know Bakke pretty well. Unfortunately, they find ways around it. For example, California requires a supermajority to raise taxes, but only a majority for a "fee." So, all "taxes" are now called "fees" and get raised.

Same in AA. Bakke prevented it, but they call it something different and rework it and try it that way. The bean counters get their stats and move toward "affirmative action."

Bakke prevented "quotas" but did not prevent "guidelines." Now we have plenty of "guidelines." For example, "We'd like to see 50/50 heads and tails. You got 70/30 heads/tails. We have no quota, only a 'target guideline' so time for you to meet it."

Come on, John. You are wise enough in the ways of the world to know that when something is banned, call it something different and do the same thing. And there was that case in Michigan a couple of years ago, remember? The one with conduct that Bakke should have prohibited but didn't.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Deuce 1]

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you are good at quantum mechanics.

Yes I am! Not many are, as they are extremely challenging if one is not expert.

Your father was a hamster.

[Deuce 1]

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Yeah, I know Bakke pretty well.

Just to be sure, that's nothing like "bukkake", right?

[kallend 2,115]

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Punishment for those who discriminate.

Don't punish me for someone else's idiocy.

If your hockey team commits a foul, it isn't just the player in the box who is punished. The entire team plays at a disadvantage to provide some correction for the previous foul.

Every white person benefits from an economy built to some extent on exploited cheap black labor enabled by discriminatory laws. We benefitted from the foul.

Consider AA to be our time in the penalty box. IMO a pretty lame penalty considering the evils of slavery and Jim Crow.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[skydyvr 0]

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A fair and effective system can only occur when our culture matures to the point that racial differences truly aren't of concern to most people. When diversity in the workplace is truly appreciated, we'll be there.

So we should wait and do nothing let the country's culture mature.

No, we haven't done that. If it weren't for civil rights breakthroughs, AA, and the efforts of many other organizations and learning institutions, we wouldn't be anywhere near where we are today in terms of racial equality.

I believe there was a time for AA. In fact, I agree with Kallend that there is still limited need for AA, but as black people steadily heal and emerge from centuries of abuse, we also need to aim for true equality by getting rid of the special treatment.

It's just a matter of doing the right things on all fronts to foster equality in the decades ahead, and I really hope that happens. Racial bigotry is just so stupid.

. . =(_8^(1)