KATO33 0 #1 May 25, 2004 The AA I'm refering to is Affirmative Action? How do we as a nation ensure that no one is discrimanated against when applying for school,Jobs, Etc. I'm not saying AA isn't flawed but what else can we use. I don't think everyone in america will wake up tommorrow with their heart in the right place. So if not AA then what I'm open to other Ideas. Blue Skies Black Death Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,115 #2 May 25, 2004 QuoteThe AA I'm refering to is Affirmative Action? How do we as a nation ensure that no one is discrimanated against when applying for school,Jobs, Etc. I'm not saying AA isn't flawed but what else can we use. I don't think everyone in america will wake up tommorrow with their heart in the right place. So if not AA then what I'm open to other Ideas. If I understand correctly, the Supremes have applied "strict scrutiny" to AA, meaning that it can only be used where the State has proved a compelling interest. They have also stated that compelling interests include promoting diversity in settings that are not diverse on account of past discrimination. Seems a reasonable compromise to me.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckbrown 0 #3 May 25, 2004 How about EO? Equal Opportunity. Everybody gets judged on their merits, and not on their skin color. You'll never eliminate discrimination, whether it be white on black, black on white or otherwise. You can only hope that those who continue to see the world through racist/bigoted eyes will continue to become a smaller and smaller part of the world. Affirmative action was valid at one point in time. Now, I think it's time has passed. It only perpetuates the stereotype that minorities can't compete on their merits and require special treatment. One question though. Isn't affirmative action itself discrimination? OK everybody, feel free to break out the flamethrowers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #4 May 25, 2004 QuoteHow do we as a nation ensure that no one is discrimanated against when applying for school,Jobs, Etc Take "Race" off of the application. Use more quantative measures of performance. If I have two people sitting in front of me. One graduated at the top of his class, and the other just managed to pass....I'm gonna hire the first guy. I should not be made to hire the second for ANY reason. If that means that I have 5 white managers and no blacks...And I can PROVE there were the best canidates...Then shut up about it. You want AA??? How about making it so a short white guy can play in the NBA? Its not fair I'm short. I should get some sort of aid so I can play in the pro's. Maybe make it so every NBA team has to hire at least one short guy per 5 tall players and a guy can't block my shots...Or maybe make my shots worth 6 points. Its not fair that I don't have the opportunity to make the big bucks playing for the Lakers just because I was born short. See its just silly."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,558 #5 May 25, 2004 Requirements for employment aren't always so cut-and-dried as your GPA. How you present yourself, how clearly you speak, how well you communicate your ideas, how obnoxious you are can all impact your ability to do some jobs, and they are all very subjective on the part of the employment interviewer. People tend to look at subjective qualities that are like they ones they possess (there are plenty of studies -- it's not universal, but most people like to hang out with folks who are like them). Well, if you're a middle-aged white guy from east Texas, you're going to be more comfortable with someone with an accent you haven't associated with amnn yankees all your life, and you'd rather work on a team with someone who you might want to go out for a beer after work with. Damn that was a long sentence , and it ended in a preposition, too. Anyway, other team-effectiveness studies seem to indicate that a team which includes different types of inputs, rather than all the same viewpoint, tend to come up with better solutions to problems. E.g. your car dealer might be more comfortable hiring white guys he can play golf with, but not all customers are white guys with ugly shoes. The same works for engineering projects and many other things. So in the long run, it's in the best interests to enforce some sort of check on people using personal preference as a major subjective screening tool. If, in fact, the highest GPA is the only criterium, well, that's easy to defend in any AA environment. However, it almost never is. Where I work, we have an EEO office, and while we don't have quotas, if we don't hire or promote a "targeted group" we simply have to justify the decision. Rationale can be almost anything; it's just a question that's asked. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #6 May 25, 2004 I will repeat what I said in the other thread. Affirmative Action is Institutionalized Racism So, what is the point of AA? To get rid of Racism? Doesn't really make sense does it? And of course it has already been said, but, AA suggests that minorities do not have the ability to succeed without help or special treatment.... Chris ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,115 #7 May 25, 2004 QuoteI will repeat what I said in the other thread. Affirmative Action is Institutionalized Racism So, what is the point of AA? To get rid of Racism? Doesn't really make sense does it? And of course it has already been said, but, AA suggests that minorities do not have the ability to succeed without help or special treatment.... Chris Of course it is, which is why the Supreme's only allow it in very restricted circumstances ("strict scrutiny"), to correct past discrimination. For various reasons, mostly good ones, our elected representatives and the SC have decided that under these circumstances it is warranted. Speaking as a white male, I don't see what you white guys are so riled up about. For 200 years the blacks were slaves or treated like dirt, yet giving them a leg up to correct these injustices for 25 years and you would think the Republic was about to fall.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #8 May 25, 2004 QuoteOf course it is, which is why the Supreme's only allow it in very restricted circumstances ("strict scrutiny"), to correct past discrimination. For various reasons, mostly good ones, our elected representatives and the SC have decided that under these circumstances it is warranted. Speaking as a white male, I don't see what you white guys are so riled up about. For 200 years the blacks were slaves or treated like dirt, yet giving them a leg up to correct these injustices for 25 years and you would think the Republic was about to fall. Well then AA obviously never affected your family did it? Again AA was and still is a bad idea for something which happened before any living americans time. Now please proffesor tell us what these "various reasons, mostly good ones" are in your opinion. Chris ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,558 #9 May 25, 2004 QuoteI'm not saying AA isn't flawed but what else can we use. Maybe one thing that could happen would be to no longer monitor, or pay much attention to, companies that have shown through fairly long (5 or 10+ years) history that their EEO numbers are reasonably representative of what's available. That would leave more time to focus on areas that are problematic, and reward with less overhead companies that are doing the right thing. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,115 #10 May 25, 2004 QuoteQuoteOf course it is, which is why the Supreme's only allow it in very restricted circumstances ("strict scrutiny"), to correct past discrimination. For various reasons, mostly good ones, our elected representatives and the SC have decided that under these circumstances it is warranted. Speaking as a white male, I don't see what you white guys are so riled up about. For 200 years the blacks were slaves or treated like dirt, yet giving them a leg up to correct these injustices for 25 years and you would think the Republic was about to fall. Well then AA obviously never affected your family did it? Again AA was and still is a bad idea for something which happened before any living americans time. Now please proffesor tell us what these "various reasons, mostly good ones" are in your opinion. Chris The SC has pretty much outlined them. There are PLENTY of living Americans, black, brown and white, who were around before Brown vs Board, and during the time of the Jim Crow laws.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #11 May 25, 2004 QuoteThe SC has pretty much outlined them. But you don't know them? But you are pretty sure they are "good ones"? ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #12 May 25, 2004 QuoteIf I have two people sitting in front of me. One graduated at the top of his class, and the other just managed to pass....I'm gonna hire the first guy. That's very good of you. Now imagine there's a white racist offering a job that pays a lot more than your's does. Two guys who both graduated at the top of the class apply. One's black, the other white. The racist hires the white guy. Luckily, you're around to hire the black guy. Unfortunately, the job doesn't pay as much. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KATO33 0 #13 May 25, 2004 QuoteI will repeat what I said in the other thread. Affirmative Action is Institutionalized Racism So, what is the point of AA? To get rid of Racism? Doesn't really make sense does it? And of course it has already been said, but, AA suggests that minorities do not have the ability to succeed without help or special treatment.... You keep repeating how AA is wrong. But you have not explained how we keep Minorities from being discriminated against in american society. Blue Skies Black Death Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #14 May 25, 2004 Well, first of all I don't think discrimination is AS large a factor as you think. You see an unemployment rate higher in blacks than in WHites and you assume it is descrimination.... There are other social and economic factors at play here. Desrimination has been brought to light and it is being prosecuted. Though this isn't a fix, is has helped to reduce the cases of discrimination. That is why there are laws which make descrimination illegal. What you fail to notice or recognize is that it goes both ways. Chris ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KATO33 0 #15 May 25, 2004 QuoteWell, first of all I don't think discrimination is AS large a factor as you think. You see an unemployment rate higher in blacks than in WHites and you assume it is descrimination.... There are other social and economic factors at play here. Desrimination has been brought to light and it is being prosecuted. Though this isn't a fix, is has helped to reduce the cases of discrimination. That is why there are laws which make descrimination illegal. What you fail to notice or recognize is that it goes both ways. Since it goes both way what system would you put in place to ensure no one gets discriminated against. Blue Skies Black Death Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #16 May 25, 2004 QuotePeople tend to look at subjective qualities that are like they ones they possess (there are plenty of studies -- it's not universal, but most people like to hang out with folks who are like them). True, but the issue is being forced to hire someone due to quota's...I bet most of the people who work for NASA all have college degrees. Many of them, maybe most are white since it seems more white children go to college than black. Well then in that case there ARE going to be more white engineers at NASA than black engineer's...And You should not have to hire 33% of blacks to be "Fair" Fair is letting the persons abilities get them the job. People yell for people to be "fair" but then want to back AA programs....Thats not Fair."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #17 May 25, 2004 QuoteWell then in that case there ARE going to be more white engineers at NASA than black engineer's...And You should not have to hire 33% of blacks to be "Fair" Fair is letting the persons abilities get them the job. People yell for people to be "fair" but then want to back AA programs....Thats not Fair. Depends on how they numbers are derived for AA. If it's determined that 20% of graduates in a particular field of study necessary for a job are black, yet only 10% of the employees hired in that field are black, then I see AA as insuring fairness. If there's an unskilled labor force of 40% blacks in a community, and a company that hires unskilled labor only has 15% black employees, then I see AA as insuring fairness. If it's based solely on population density with no regard to the skills needed or posessed then it is unfair. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #18 May 25, 2004 QuoteThat's very good of you. Now imagine there's a white racist offering a job that pays a lot more than your's does. Two guys who both graduated at the top of the class apply. One's black, the other white. The racist hires the white guy. Luckily, you're around to hire the black guy. Unfortunately, the job doesn't pay as much. So? The racist would find away to hire white guy anyway. And if both are EQUAL then its his buisness...My issue is when a LESS qualified guy gets the job...It's wrong for the white racist to hire the less qualified white guy, but its also wrong to have to hire the less qualified black guy because of some quota you have to meet. The difference is that hiring the less qualified black guy is legal, and even encouraged...And all the time under the guise of being "Fair"."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KATO33 0 #19 May 25, 2004 QuoteTrue, but the issue is being forced to hire someone due to quota's...I bet most of the people who work for NASA all have college degrees. Many of them, maybe most are white since it seems more white children go to college than black. How do we ensure Colleges don't discriminate against minorities. How do we ensure Schools in predominately minority population gets funded on par with the white schools. I'm not trying to antagonize anyone I'm am truly interested in what alternative methods are out there. Blue Skies Black Death Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,115 #20 May 25, 2004 QuoteQuoteThe SC has pretty much outlined them. But you don't know them? But you are pretty sure they are "good ones"? I already told you the single most common one. Pay attention. I have not memorized every single case.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelel01 1 #21 May 25, 2004 QuoteHow do we ensure schools in predominately minority population gets funded on par with the white schools. To this, I say vote, take a stand. If you don't get involved, they might not be equally funded. White people at schools around my home get what they want because they don't quit bitching until they do (for which I used a negative connotation, but is actually a good thing). Lack of community involvement is a huge driving force in loss of certain types of funding. Kelly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #22 May 25, 2004 QuoteIt's wrong for the white racist to hire the less qualified white guy, but its also wrong to have to hire the less qualified black guy because of some quota you have to meet. I agree with you. But the fact of the matter is, there are white racists who will hire less qualified white people. Then there are fair people, who will hire the most qualified. But that creates an imbalance. If there were a bunch of minority owned companies that hired less qualified blacks, it would balance out. But there aren't. The fact of the matter is that racism does exist from both sides, but the net result in the work force is that more underqualified whites are hired because they are white because or racism. AA tries to level the field for the work force. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #23 May 25, 2004 QuoteHow do we ensure Colleges don't discriminate against minorities Well the first step is to get the kids to apply themselves...Which they are not. If more white kids apply to college, then more white kids are going to go to college.And more white kids are going to get degrees...It only makes sense that more white kids are going to get good jobs...If I have 10 black applicants, and 100 white applicants and only 3 jobs....I want the Top 3, not the top 2 white, and top black one. Quote New York Times After making inflammatory remarks Monday about the behavior and values of some poor blacks, comedian Bill Cosby said that he had made the comments out of concern and because of his belief that fighting racial injustice must also include accepting personal responsibility. He has been attacked and applauded for saying that "the lower economic people are not holding up their end in this deal." He was also reported to have said: "These people are not parenting. They are buying things for their kids -- $500 sneakers for what? And won't spend $200 for `Hooked on Phonics.' ... They're standing on the corner and they can't speak English." The National Center for Education Statistics, a federal agency, says that in 2000 the dropout rate for blacks was 13.1 percent. The first thing is to get the young black kids to GO to college, increase the available pool of talent and let the best rise to the top. How many world class black 4 way guys are there out there? How many black on the 357 way? Does that mean skydiving is a racist sport?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KATO33 0 #24 May 25, 2004 QuoteTo this, I say vote, take a stand. If you don't get involved, they might not be equally funded. White people at schools around my home get what they want because they don't quit bitching until they do (for which I used a negative connotation, but is actually a good thing). Lack of community involvement is a huge driving force in loss of certain types of funding. Voting won't do it alone sometimes. But some would have our "Organized bitch groups" disbanded Blue Skies Black Death Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelel01 1 #25 May 25, 2004 You've taken quite a defeated stance here. It's kind of like, well, there's nothing we can do, so why bother? Sometimes change has to come from within. Kelly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
