Gas Prices

[Gawain 0]

I'm going to refine your figures based on a conversion tool I have that also accounts for "true" expense (i.e. maintenance, wear/tear), and 260 "working days" per year.

Poor guy, $6.50/hr = $260/wk = $13520/year
45 mile ROUND TRIP commute
35 MPG

@$2.00/gallon
Daily expense is $10.28
Weekly expense is $51.43
Yearly expense is $2674.29 (approx. 20% of gross income)

@$2.50/gallon
Daily expense is $12.85
Weekly expense is $64.29
Yearly expense is $3342.85 (approx. 25% of gross income)

---

"Lower" middle guy, $17.50/hr = $700/wk = $36400/year
45 mile ROUND TRIP commute
27 MPG

@$2.00/gallon
Daily expense is $13.33
Weekly expense is $66.66
Yearly expense is $3466.66 (approx. 10% of gross income)

@$2.50/gallon
Daily expense is $16.66
Weekly expense is $83.33
Yearly expense is $4333.33 (approx. 12% of gross income)

---

Middle class guy, $25.00/hr = $1000/wk = $52000/yr
45 mile ROUND TRIP commute
15 MPG

@$2.00/gallon
Daily expense is $24.00
Weekly expense is $120.00
Yearly expense is $6240.00 (approx. 12% of gross income)

@$2.50/gallon
Daily expense is $30.00
Weekly expense is $150.00
Yearly expense is $7800.00 (approx. 15% of gross income)

---

Upper class guy, $150.00/hr = $6000/wk = $312000/yr
45 mile ROUND TRIP commute
8 MPG

@$2.00/gallon
Daily expense is $45.00
Weekly expense is $225.00
Yearly expense is $11700.00 (approx. 3.8% of gross income)

@$2.50/gallon
Daily expense is $56.25
Weekly expense is $281.25
Yearly expense is $14625.00 (approx. 4.7% of gross income)

---

When you look at more than just the cost of gas, the impact is devastating. The "poor" guy would likely have to find either a second job, or a replacement job closer to home. In essence, I could become too expensive to work...

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[PhillyKev 0]

Thank you for demonstrating why a graduated income tax system is more fair than a flat tax.

Oh yeah...and maybe the poor guy (and the rich guy for that matter) could try car pooling or taking public transportation.

[billvon 3,120]

>The "poor" guy would likely have to find either a second job, or a
>replacement job closer to home. In essence, I could become too
> expensive to work...

?? Not sure what that has to do with anything. We were talking about how much more it would cost the poor guy to work if gas prices went up, not what the overall cost of owning a car is. And an average person drives about 11 miles to get to work. Renters drive shorter distances, owners drive longer distances. So on the average, poor people are going to be driving _less_ than eleven miles. In my example, that's an additional $6 a month, or less than .5% of his income if he is working for minimum wage.

Now, perhaps owning a car (with insurance, registration, car payments, maintenance etc) is too expensive for this guy, if he also wants a nice apartment. But that's a different discussion. The bottom line is that a 30% increase in gas tax is not that significant to the poor guy.

[billvon 3,120]

>Your are right Bill, it is not much, but if you are the guy making
>minimum wage every penny counts.

So drive slower. Driving more slowly can easily up your gas mileage enough to compensate for that $6. I can go from 20 to 26mpg in the minivan by changing my driving habits.

[Gawain 0]

If you own a car, then gas prices are just one factor that must be considered in the commuting cost to any individual.

Real world fact: it's not just the price of gas you pay for in a daily commute. People don't generally drive only to work either.

Even getting back to "gas-only" examples, if someone regularly re-fills their tank once per week, 10 gallons (figure 27 MPG, weekly travel 270 miles). The cost of gas alone is $1040/yr @ $2.00/gal. $1300/yr @ $2.50/gal.

$260/year difference is a week's pay for a low wage individual. Manageable, yes. Noticeable, very.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[kallend 2,150]

Quote

>Your are right Bill, it is not much, but if you are the guy making
>minimum wage every penny counts.

So drive slower. Driving more slowly can easily up your gas mileage enough to compensate for that $6. I can go from 20 to 26mpg in the minivan by changing my driving habits.

Ever since I got a car with a MPG readout on the dash I've been driving more slowly.

Driving at 80mph got me 21mpg. Driving at 65mph got me 26mpg. That's nearly 1.5 gallons or $3 difference for the round trip to the DZ. All things considered, the time difference of just a few minutes was irrelevant.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,150]

Quote

If you own a car, then gas prices are just one factor that must be considered in the commuting cost to any individual.

Real world fact: it's not just the price of gas you pay for in a daily commute. People don't generally drive only to work either.

Even getting back to "gas-only" examples, if someone regularly re-fills their tank once per week, 10 gallons (figure 27 MPG, weekly travel 270 miles). The cost of gas alone is $1040/yr @ $2.00/gal. $1300/yr @ $2.50/gal.

$260/year difference is a week's pay for a low wage individual. Manageable, yes. Noticeable, very.

Well, it's very nasty if it's an unexpected shock like now.

If it was a policy introduced gradually and announced well beforehand, we'd all accommodate without too much grief.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

Their air-cooled engines were simple, and easy to fix, but can't hold a candle next to the newer engines.

I guess you've never seen a '67 Beetle launch off the line and blow the doors off of a "euro" or a "ricer" pulling in a 1/4 mile in 9 seconds.

With some modern things like the CB Performance Weber IDF bodied fuel injectors and good turbochargers 300bhp is very possible in a type 1 engine. I've seen it quite a few times.

People assume that since the original design of the VW flat 4 was done in 1933 that it is an old and tired technology...those are the same folks that think a "Honda R" decal adds 10hp to their ricer.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Gawain 0]

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that the older engines were "baaaaad". Quite the contrary. I agree with you. I just like what VW's been doing lately. I'm not a pushrods-hydrolic-lifters kind of guy...

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[dgm458 0]

A few randon thoughts from a guy who read the random thoughts of the buzzing anvil:

As a disclaimer, I am not a GWB supporter in any fashion, so don't take this as though I am taking up for the guy.

Gas prices, good or bad, are not the doing of one man (GWB), but rather the result of actions taken by an entire administration. Politicians depend on money, in the form of "donations," from people like you and me. The problem is people like you and me can only afford to give so much to so many whereas oil and gas companies and their executives can afford to give much more. As a result, their thoughts and wishes are given more consideration than ours. This has multiple effects. Not only will it effect the price at the pump, but also the dependence on oil and gas rather than "alternative fuels."

The dramatic increase/decrease in the price of gas is usually associated with the rise/fall in demand of the product. An increase in demand usually comes in the summer months. It's warmer out, daylight hours are longer, people aren't in the house as much and thus use more gasoline. The more gas that is depleted from the pumps, the more trips from the gas truck are required. This results in either overtime for the truck driver and those associated with the distribution and processing of gas or additional hiring, which will result in a necessity for more money either way. We all have to mow our lawns, but how many of us use an electric lawn mower? Wasn't it Los Angeles that outlawed gas powered leaf blowers used by lawn trimming companies?

Anvil stated that the price of gas isn't really out of step with inflation, but rather is sort of a correction in price that hasn't settled yet. The working people of America would be better prepared for the price of gas if it wasn't so dramatic of an increase. Many people in the workforce receive Cost Of Living Adjustments to their salaries, which is primarily based on the Consumer Pricing Index released in the Wall Street Journal. Some pension plans even give COLA's to retirees. These wage increases/decreases are based on inflation that has occured during a specific time span, one month for some COLA's and six months for others. My COLA recently had a decrease because of the "relaxation of energy prices."

In short, today's salaries are not adjusted to these gas prices so therefore we are not prepared for them. To say that they are simply playing catch up is true to only a certain extent. A loaf of bread in the 60's was less than ten cents and now it's a dollar a loaf, a 1000% increase. My dad said he paid less than 17 cents for a gallon of gas in 63 when Kennedy died, but now we're paying $1.90, a 1000% increase also. However, my salary is adjusted to me paying $1.55 a gallon.

Congress has the ability to take steps to better control our dependence on gas and oil and to better control the price of both. We have the technology to produce engines that get 30, 40, even 50 miles per gallon with conventional gasoline. California passed SMOG legislation, so why doesn't Congress pass legislation with fuel economy requirements? We don't do this because of where the money comes from. Too many people would lose jobs if we steered away from our dependence on gas and oil, with no guarantee of re-employment in the gaining industry. A majority of these people would be unable or would find severe obstacles in finding employment in another industry because their industry is all that they have ever known. That's just the blue collar workers. White collar workers have much more clout now than ever before. 20 years ago, over 60% of all revenue was paid back to the blue collar worker and only 12% to the upper exec's. Now, less than 24% is paid back to the blue collar workers and more than 43% is given to the exec's.

Just my .02....I could go on and on.

As a result of higher gas prices, I have found my self hitching a ride to work with my brother from time to time. We work together and his rice burner get much better gas mileage than my big truck.

david

--------------------------------------------------
Failure to prepare is preparing to fail

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

I'm not a pushrods-hydrolic-lifters kind of guy...

I'm not a hydrolic lifters type of guy either...don't need them, they only cause problems when fitted to the Type1 engine, the regular lifters work just fine thankyou.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[TypicalFish 0]

Quote

Quote

Their air-cooled engines were simple, and easy to fix, but can't hold a candle next to the newer engines.

I guess you've never seen a '67 Beetle launch off the line and blow the doors off of a "euro" or a "ricer" pulling in a 1/4 mile in 9 seconds.

With some modern things like the CB Performance Weber IDF bodied fuel injectors and good turbochargers 300bhp is very possible in a type 1 engine. I've seen it quite a few times.

People assume that since the original design of the VW flat 4 was done in 1933 that it is an old and tired technology...those are the same folks that think a "Honda R" decal adds 10hp to their ricer.

Exactly. The flat-6 in my Carrera is just another iteration of the original V-Dub flat-4; and I will be happy to bring its little 150 MPH butt to the party anytime...

"I gargle no man's balls..." ussfpa on SOCNET

[kallend 2,150]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Their air-cooled engines were simple, and easy to fix, but can't hold a candle next to the newer engines.

I guess you've never seen a '67 Beetle launch off the line and blow the doors off of a "euro" or a "ricer" pulling in a 1/4 mile in 9 seconds.

With some modern things like the CB Performance Weber IDF bodied fuel injectors and good turbochargers 300bhp is very possible in a type 1 engine. I've seen it quite a few times.

People assume that since the original design of the VW flat 4 was done in 1933 that it is an old and tired technology...those are the same folks that think a "Honda R" decal adds 10hp to their ricer.

Exactly. The flat-6 in my Carrera is just another iteration of the original V-Dub flat-4; and I will be happy to bring its little 150 MPH butt to the party anytime...

My Mooney has only a flat 4, and it will go 175mph all day.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[quade 4]

I've got an idea . . . one that probably isn't going to be too popular, but here goes:

Buy a vehicle that matches your actual needs rather than one that compensates for your ego.

For 90% of the people on the roads I drive on a regular basis, there is no need to haul that much weight around. A smaller vehicle would suffice and save a heck of a lot of fuel.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

A smaller vehicle would suffice and save a heck of a lot of fuel.

I had/have a smaller car, a '73 SuperBeetle, I couldn't haul jack shit with it, although I love that car and it is a lot of fun to drive. My '98 K1500 hauls both "jack" and "shit" regularly and very well. I even pull "bull" sometimes and on occasion I'll get it stuck in the "shit".

Basically, it annoys the piss out of me when folks who don't know me (not saying this directly to you Quade, you just hapened to have reminded me of a rant), try to tell me I don't "use" my truck thus I should drive a little civic or something.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skydyvr 0]

Quote

Buy a vehicle that matches your actual needs rather than one that compensates for your ego.

A guy down the street from me has a Hummer 2. He drives it back and forth to work everday, day in, day out. Always looks nice and shiny. Sometimes I see him and his wife loading groceries down at the Safeway store.

For the life of me, I can't understand why we don't regulate fuel consumption more than we do. There's nothing conservative or liberal about it, just common sense. That guy is eating up a limited resource unnecessarily, and we all pay the price for it.

. . =(_8^(1)

[quade 4]

Well, there's also a difference between what you drive on a day to day basis and what you might have in your back pocket as a recreational vehicle that can also be used to for work on an occasional basis.

What really pisses me off is to drive into a downtown office parking structure and see row after row of big fuggin' black Lincoln Navigators that these idiots drive to and from work 5 days a week -- to an office.

Actual work vehicles don't bother me at all. If you need to haul large amounts of materials for contracting or whatever, yeah, go right ahead, it's part of your business and part of the economy. But where I live . . . this just isn't the case for 90% of the vehicles.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[kallend 2,150]

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Well, there's also a difference between what you drive on a day to day basis and what you might have in your back pocket as a recreational vehicle that can also be used to for work on an occasional basis.

What really pisses me off is to drive into a downtown office parking structure and see row after row of big fuggin' black Lincoln Navigators that these idiots drive to and from work 5 days a week -- to an office.

Actual work vehicles don't bother me at all. If you need to haul large amounts of materials for contracting or whatever, yeah, go right ahead, it's part of your business and part of the economy. But where I live . . . this just isn't the case for 90% of the vehicles.

The guy over the road from me has an SUV, and so does his wife. The most they ever haul is golf clubs, and the farthest off road they go is driving through the car wash.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

The guy over the road from me has an SUV, and so does his wife. The most they ever haul is golf clubs, and the farthest off road they go is driving through the car wash

Yup, sounds like a pair of worthless fucking yuppies. Sucks to be you, since they're near your house.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Gawain 0]

I could not care less about what other people drive. It's a matter of choice in this country, not a matter of "need". If someone can afford to own, run, and maintain an H2 getting 12 MPG, fine. I know people that could easily afford their own private fleet of BMW 760iL sedans (which gets 23 MPG Hwy, not bad for a 6.0L 12-cylinder), and they choose to drive what many might consider to be "more sensible" cars.

I currently drive an Acura CL Type-S coupe. It's got a fairly big V6, makes a lot of power, has 6 forward gears, and ample trunk space for a bachelor and goes really fast and has a range of 17-26 MPG (depending how heavy my right foot is feeling). I could get by just as well with a Civic EX Coupe, but I didn't want one. I didn't need a V6, but I wanted one. I pay for it at the pump too, the car requires premium fuel. I was willing to pay the piper when I took the keys.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[billvon 3,120]

>Gas prices, good or bad, are not the doing of one man (GWB), but
>rather the result of actions taken by an entire administration.

I don't think that's true. Gas prices really have little to do with government, outside of energy efficiency initiatives (which drive costs down) or wars (which tend to drive them up.) For the most part, though, the market sets the price of gas.

>California passed SMOG legislation, so why doesn't Congress pass
>legislation with fuel economy requirements?

They did. The CAFE standards helped greatly increase average MPG figures up until the mid-90's, when they started dropping again due to the SUV loophole. (CAFE requires all manufacturer's fleets to average at least 27mpg, but there's a loophole for SUV's that only require them to get 20mpg.) There are various ongoing legislative efforts to increase these requirements and close the SUV loophole.

> Too many people would lose jobs if we steered away from our
>dependence on gas and oil, with no guarantee of re-employment in the
>gaining industry.

But then again many farmers, processors and engineers would add jobs. Buggy whip manufacturers lost out big when cars came out, but overall the automotive industry has added more jobs than were lost in the buggy-whip business.

[rehmwa 2]

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Yup, sounds like a pair of worthless fucking yuppies. Sucks to be you, since they're near your house.

Why? They probably take care of their lawn and watch the neighborhood and have good parties. They both likely have decent jobs and contribute to society and are well educated.

How does owning a couple SUVs make them worthless? I didn't think you were into class warfare stereotyping.....

(I know you were being tongue in cheek)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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What really pisses me off is to drive into a downtown office parking structure and see row after row of big fuggin' black Lincoln Navigators that these idiots drive to and from work 5 days a week -- to an office.

Actual work vehicles don't bother me at all . . .

Sucks to be you then since it's none of your business whether someone needs something vs whether they can afford to have what they want. I bet they think that skydiving is only for idiots with a death wish.

You'd both be wrong.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[quade 4]

Man you just don't get it do you?

I'm not saying that people have to do anything -- only that it would make more sense for the entire planet if some consideration was given.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Gawain 0]

Quote

Man you just don't get it do you?

I'm not saying that people have to do anything -- only that it would make more sense for the entire planet if some consideration was given.

Come on Paul, that's like asking for logic, and reasoning...and stuff like that...

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!