Does all volunteer miltary work?

[quade 4]

Lou --

Don't get me wrong at all. I'm not saying that the enlisted ranks are populated by Gomers. Far from it. The vast majority are above average in intelligence and far above average in dedication.

That said, I maintain my position that there is a skew in the demographic.

Check out this report http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=1904094.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 4]

Is ya certain ya wanna speak in absolutes about this issue?

I understand all of your points on several levels, but you're a man of words and letters and I'd have thought you'd give yourself a little bit o' wiggle room on this.


What happens if . . .

GWB gets re-elected and then decides to run with the legislation proposed by the Democrats? Think about it. He needs the troops pretty badly -- I would hope we could all agree on that point and he could say that while he's tried to resist the Democrats just wouldn't let him stop the draft.

Anyway, just one possible scenario.

I don't think it's a lock either way.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[seekfun 0]

I just want to fuel the fire with a little factoid:

The military has something called the 'Inactive Ready Reserve' from which it can pull warm bodies. And, these are pre-trained warm bodies.

Whenever an individual enlists in the military, she signs an 8 year agreement, regardless of the length of active or reserve service. This applies to DOD, DHS, and Guard enlistments. So, if Tom Smith enlists in the Army for 4 years and serves the length of his active obligation honorably, he will separate from the active ranks and be placed on the Inactive Ready Reserve list. For the remaining 4 years of Mr. Smith's obligation, he lives as a normal Joe Schmoe. But, he could be recalled at any time the Nation needs him.

I know this because I'm on said list until December. I keep my gun well oiled.

,

topher

"...there is a there out there..." - Tom Robbins

[billvon 3,118]

>The military has something called the 'Inactive Ready Reserve' from
> which it can pull warm bodies. And, these are pre-trained warm bodies.

Indeed; the administration has already called for changes to the IRS code to allow the pentagon to track down IRR members via their tax returns.

[newsstand 0]

Outside of some rare specialties if we reach the point were we have to call up these folks, I was one once too, we are in deep trouble.

As I allueded to in my initial post if we can't get enough volunteers maybe the populice doesn't support the war. On the other hand I have read that most people who served in WWII were draftees which kind of blunts the "I don't want a draftee covering my back" argument.

"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

[seekfun 0]

You have to be careful with comparing today's youth to the youth of WWII. I don't want non-volunteers covering my back today, but I would have gladly served alongside most of WWII's draftees.

Here's why:

50+ years ago, kids did not sit inside with their pants half way down their asses playing video games and thinking they were actually living their lives. 50+ years ago, kids did play outside, roughly I might add. They also hunted to put food on the family table, chopped wood for the fireplace, walked back and forth to school (up hill both ways), and were generally better suited to military service.

Many kids today are mentally and physically weak pieces of shit in my humble opinion. That being said, I was quite humbled by the level of performance I saw in Kuwait during the beginning of the war. I was impressed on a daily basis with the level of dedication and competence our 18 and 19 year-old troops had. Of course, they were all volunteers.

Damn kids need to put down their video game controllers and get some scabs on their knees these days.

That's my rant,

topher

"...there is a there out there..." - Tom Robbins

[Ron 10]

Quote

You have to be careful with comparing today's youth to the youth of WWII.

No you don't. Every generation thinks the next is worthless....And every generation they prove otherwise.

First you say this:

Quote

Many kids today are mentally and physically weak pieces of shit in my humble opinion.

Then you say this:

Quote

That being said, I was quite humbled by the level of performance I saw in Kuwait during the beginning of the war. I was impressed on a daily basis with the level of dedication and competence our 18 and 19 year-old troops had.

You proved yourself wrong IN THE SAME POST!!!!!!

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[seekfun 0]

There's nearly a contradiction in what I said. But, I didn't say 'worthless', I said 'weak pieces of shit'. And, I said many, not all. Most kids today are weak pieces of shit. There is no way you can say that today's youth are as mentally and physically strong as yesterday's youth. We have an entire generation of kids on psychological medications and weight-loss programs. Society is more complex, I understand. It doesn't change the fact that many are not suited for the battlefield or supporting roles.

Now, I'm only 29 years old, so it's easier for me to lump myself into the 'weak pieces of shit' category than the 'heroes of yesteryear' category. And, I admit, I have my frailties that I don't see in my Dad and my Grandfathers. And, I will concede that we do accomplish many wonderful things today, on the battlefield and otherwise.

But, you still can not draw parallels between the youth of the 1940s and the youth of today. Those hard asses didn't even have PacMan.

TTFN,

topher

"...there is a there out there..." - Tom Robbins

[billvon 3,118]

>But, you still can not draw parallels between the youth of the 1940s
>and the youth of today. Those hard asses didn't even have PacMan.

Your definition of "hard asses" are people who don't play video games? They played marbles. They threw rocks at cars. They stole magazines and cigarettes. Ask any parent in the 1940's (which is when my grandparents raised my parents) and they would have told you that "kids nowadays have no respect for their elders!"

Every generation sees the next generation as worthless and lazy. It's one of the tenets of adulthood.

[seekfun 0]

Quote

Every generation sees the next generation as worthless and lazy. It's one of the tenets of adulthood.

I don't see this generation as worthless, though many are lazy. And, I don't define hard assess as people who don't play video games. It's simply my opinion that too many people these days consider playing video games as experiencing life. They mistake being good at HALO as being ready to take on the terrorists.

And, you're right, every generation has its opinions - often negative - about the next generation. But, each generation also blames the previous one for its woes. It goes round and round.

The larger point is - our military today comprises a smaller percentage of our total population, both because our military is smaller and because our population is greater. Today, most people know someone who is serving in the middle east or Afghanistan right now. During World War II, nearly every family had someone serving in Europe, the Pacific, Africa, etc. The quality people we have in the military today are due to increasing standards and the fact that they're volunteers who want to be there. But, they are a small percentage of society. If we institute a draft, we're going to get shit. Why? Because across the population, there's more shit than there was back in the 40s.

Don't get me wrong, many people of superior moral and physical fiber never serve. Cool and the gang. But, the draft does not distinguish who those people are. And, it's not fair to only take the cream of the crop. When you go fishing, sometimes you have to throw things back.

I'm simply saying that a lot of kids walking the block today, pants half way down their asses, talking tough shit in front of their friends, would be the first babies to start crying when the bullets start flying.

Have fun storming the castle...

topher

"...there is a there out there..." - Tom Robbins

[Guest]

Quote

Is ya certain ya wanna speak in absolutes about this issue?

I understand all of your points on several levels, but you're a man of words and letters and I'd have thought you'd give yourself a little bit o' wiggle room on this.


What happens if . . .

GWB gets re-elected and then decides to run with the legislation proposed by the Democrats? Think about it. He needs the troops pretty badly -- I would hope we could all agree on that point and he could say that while he's tried to resist the Democrats just wouldn't let him stop the draft.

Anyway, just one possible scenario.

I don't think it's a lock either way.

I do, and in the negative. Whether he wins next November or not, he has to get Congress to buy off on any legislation - he can't just enact conscription by Executive Order.

I have seen an anectdotal opinion that 90% of citizens oppose conscription. That, coupled with the grass-roots activism that will undoubtedly spring up if the current bill doesn't get a committee stake in its heart immediately, means that even a super-majority in the House won't stop it.

If this BS bill gets to the floor, you're going to see MILLIONS marching on DC, sending those damned CongressCritters a message they won't be able to ignore.

You'll see me out front.

No need for wiggle room, Paul - I maintain my position that nobody will sit still for this, especially since the generation that protested the draft is now in charge. They remember what it was like.

They will also remember that the protests against the Vietnam War quit immediately after the draft was abolished.

There's too much recent memory.

Those who use WW2 as an allegory for universal conscription will also note the "WW" in front of the numeral "2". We're in a world war, but it's low-intensity conflict, as opposed to vast theaters and campaigns as were fought in that one, where some 7 Million troops were in the US military alone.

The future is small, dirty wars in armpits like Iraq, not pushing back the Axis all over the world.

Lastly, I maintain that voluntary service is far more egalitarian than conscription. There's nothing more useless (and dangerous) than an empty uniform.

mh

.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[billvon 3,118]

>The larger point is - our military today comprises a smaller percentage of
>our total population, both because our military is smaller and because our
>population is greater.

And because there is no draft.

>I'm simply saying that a lot of kids walking the block today, pants half
>way down their asses, talking tough shit in front of their friends, would be
>the first babies to start crying when the bullets start flying.

Oh, I agree. And I bet that during the 40's, when the draft was in full swing, a lot of kids got to the front lines and started crying. But whether you cry or not is not the issue - the issue is whether you defended your country and put your life on the line. The people who fought and died in the wars are no less heroes just because they were frightened when they first confronted combat.

Nowadays, only people who want to be in the military are in the military. Thus you get fewer people who really don't want to go. I suspect that the population is about the same as it's always been - the difference now is that not everyone has to go to war.

[seekfun 0]

billvon,

I agree with you, on all comments.

I guess that deep down inside, what I'm really feeling is: please don't ever send me into combat with the guys my little sister dates. Please. That would...like...suck.

Support Our Troops,

topher

"...there is a there out there..." - Tom Robbins

[newsstand 0]

Leaving basic physical shape out of it for now and just talking about mental rediness I think you would be surprised what a little stress can do to straighten a person out. Some of those dudes that date your sister might just surprise you if their lives were on the line.

"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

[steve1 5]

Quote

I belive that a volunteer force will always be more profesional than a conscripted one. Can't imagine a worse scenario than having my back covered by someone that has no interest in the profesion and is only there because the alternative was a prison sentance. Sounds like a fasttrack way to lower moral.

When I first read this I wanted to disagree, because I knew a lot of draftees, during the 70's, who were every bit as good a soldier as those in the regular army. Many draftees back then figured two years in the infantry was better than three years if you enlisted. Some spent less than two years on active duty back then. So many were aware that they were about to be drafted and they let it happen. Many knew they would probably go to Vietnam, but I doubt if most knew what they were getting themselves into.

But after thinking about it, I have to agree that an all volunteer army would be superior to any that could be produced with a draft. I went through infantry training in 1970 at Ft. Polk, Louisiana. (Better known as "Tiger Land"). Just about all these troops were being groomed for combat in Vietnam. I'd like to say that they were all great soldiers, but this would be far from the truth. I'd bet that over half had been drafted into the infantry. Many came from gangs in big cities, many had little education, some had a choice between jail and military service, and many had little loyalty to anyone but themselves. A few were also well educated, tough, and great soldiers (but not many). To tell you the truth...I couldn't imagine going into combat with such a motley crew.

Some of these soldiers you'd try to wake up for their turn at guard duty, and you literally couldn't get them up. Many would fall asleep as soon as they went on guard duty. One guy was even bragging about how he had murdered a white guy in a parking lot, and how he had got away with it. And here I was, a 19 year old white guy, fresh off the farm.

I recall one day when I walked out of my baracks, and was confronted by a group of blacks who were sitting on the steps. I didn't know what to say, but mumbled something like, "Boy it sure is a nice day out!"

The next thing you know two of them were threatening to beat me up because supposedly I called them "Boy". I was a lot more careful when I said "boy" after that. You had to have lived back then to understand the racial tension that was in the Military during the early 70's. Some Blacks were my best friends, while others hated my guts because my skin was the wrong color. Some trainees were required to wear their helmets any time they went outside, because someone might throw bottles at you from a second story.

Does this sound like todays military. Of course not. I'd hate to see it return to those standards. If a draft is re-instated I'd bet the lower standards go right along with it. I mean, how else could it be fair.

And I don't mean to be slamming Blacks. Many of our best soldiers then and now are Black. I could tell just as many stories about some of the sorry-assed white-folk I trained with.

But then again, I was in the National Guard, back then, so many might consider me to be a sorry-assed draft dodger. And I'll agree the National Guard (back then) was pretty much a joke. I'd have hated to gone into combat with many of these guys too, even though it was an S.F. unit....Steve1

[jdhill 0]

Quote

if we can't get enough volunteers maybe the populice doesn't support the war.

Who says we can't get enough volenteers? The last I read, all the services were meeting their recruiting and retention goals...

They are not calling on the IRR in great numbers, I'm in it and they didn't take me up on my offer to go to Afganistan... and I'm in one of those "important" specialties...

And if there were a problem, better pay and benifits (whicha re already needed) and better incentive programs are the answer, not a draft.

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke