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Gawain

SSG Camilo Mejia Convicted of Desertion

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http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120595,00.html

It took 20 minutes for the military jury to convict him. He was sentenced to a year in jail and received a bad conduct discharge.

I have a question, is a "bad conduct" discharge the same as a "dishonorable" discharge? Or, are they one-in-the-same?
So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

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The bad conduct discharge is not as bad as the dishonorable discharge. Apparently he served honorably up until now. Back in the old days some employers would not hire you if you had nothing short of an honorable discharge.
Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

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Good. He wasn't drafted, he had an obligation that he should have lived up to. Friend of mine enlisted when I did (I couldn't go for medical reasons). I enlisted as a nuke and was going to come out as a nuclear engineer. That's why I was going in. He went in to get money for college. 4 months later he was the gunner in tank going after the Repbulican Guard during the Gulf War. He didn't consider deserting. He and I both knew what the risks were of enlisting during peace time and agreed to those risks for the reward we would receive. This guy is a welcher.

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He was sentenced to a year in jail and received a bad conduct discharge.



Seems to me that he got off easy, one year in prison and a "Bad Conduct" discharge doesn't seem like enough.


"Bad Conduct"?
He deserted his country.
He deserted those he had sworn to protect.
He deserted his friends.
If that's not dishonorable I don't know what is.


-
Jim
"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

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Serves him right, the asshole.

mh

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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

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I really don't know how I feel about it. On one hand we can't have people in the military thinking it's okay to jump ship whenever they have second thoughts. Shouldn't have joined in the first place if that was a possibility. But I also think that what we're doing in Iraq is SO ABSOLUTELY and INCREDIBLY WRONG! I personally would refuse to serve there if by some crazy stretch I was told to. I would not hesitate to serve, though (despite my advancing age), in something I thought was legitimate. At some point there has to be a line that an individual will not cross in the name of serving his or her country. I don't think we're there yet, though I think we're getting close.

Peace~
Lindsey
--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

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I would not hesitate to serve, though (despite my advancing age), in something I thought was legitimate.



Then don't join the military. As I've mentioned before, you don't get to pick and choose your wars.

-
Jim
"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

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seems to me that he got off easy...
"Bad Conduct"?
He deserted his country.
He deserted those he had sworn to protect.
He deserted his friends.
If that's not dishonorable I don't know what is.


He did get off easy. Just a little History: In 1945 a Private Eddie Slovik was executed by the Army. He was the only soldier to be excuted for desertion since the Civil War.
-

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

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seems to me that he got off easy...
"Bad Conduct"?
He deserted his country.
He deserted those he had sworn to protect.
He deserted his friends.
If that's not dishonorable I don't know what is.


He did get off easy. Just a little History: In 1945 a Private Eddie Slovik was executed by the Army. He was the only soldier to be excuted for desertion since the Civil War.
-



Eisenhower signed off personally on Slovik's death warrant.

mh

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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

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With the exception of disobedience of unlawful orders, a soldier does what he's told, when and where he's told. When you're a GI, you are at the "pointy end of the spear", and are an instrument of US foreign policy, for good or ill, whether you approve or not.

The short version is that if you aren't willing to be a von Clausewitz tool ("War is an extension of diplomacy by other means."), don't enlist.

Edit to add: I can certainly understand (and sympathize and support!) a GI deciding that when it comes down to it, he can't bring himself to pull a trigger and snuff a fellow human being.

Mejia could have gone through his chain of command and said that despite his training, this was something he couldn't do, and he would be a hazard to himself and his mates in a firefight.

He could have requested a transfer or a discharge on these grounds. He could have offered to make restitution for what was spent on him, etc., but no, he had to make it a big political, public spectacle.

Guess he was hoping for a sweet book deal.

He'll have plenty of time to write it while he's in Kansas, and later (I hope), that third-world shithole he came from.

mh

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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

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Okay....if you put aside the fact that it's OUR military (to maybe remove some of the emotion and sense of nationalism that many of us feel) do you think that citizens of any country who serve in the military should feel obligated to follow ANY orders given by their equivalent of commander in chief? So go to the extreme and say that Commander in Chief is equivalent to Hitler (as that comparison has been drawn recently). I'm not saying that's what's happening here, but you're basically saying that people should obey blindly, or at least that's what I'm gathering. I believe that somewhere each individual should cease to see him-/herself as property and instead as a citizen and human being that will not participate in some endeavors. How do you find that line?

I'm not asking for argument's sake. I really want to know what y'all think.

Peace~
Lindsey
--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

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Please read my earlier posting concerning unlawful orders.

Military law (UCMJ) and the Geneva protocols (which we appear to be in gross violation of in that Iraq jail lately - oops) are very clear. Disobedience of unlawful (or patently stupid) orders is allowed.

Egregious example: A soldier is is ordered to shoot bound, unarmed PoWs (as opposed to armed, hostile, and trying-to-get-me combatants). He refuses. The OIC has him arrested for disobeying orders. A hearing is convened to determine whether a court-martial should take place. UCMJ is consulted. Most likely, the troop will be exonerated. Disobeying orders is risky, but if I had to make a choice like that (my career or my soul), it would be pretty easy.

Another egregious example was shown in the feature film "The Thin Red Line":

From a distance, where he cannot see directly what is going on, Lt. Colonel Tall (Nick Nolte) orders Captain Staros (Elias Koteas) via field telephone to attack a hill. Captain Staros refuses, knowing that his men will be cut to pieces. Colonel Tall goes apoplectic (nice piece of acting by Nolte BTW), threatens Captain Staros with all kinds of hell and damnation, beginning with a court-martial. Staros holds his ground against his superior officer, because he knows that with the Colonel, he's risking his career, but the lives of his men are worth it.

All this is moot, because AFAIK, Mejia was never ordered to commit any unlawful acts. He saw some things he didn't like, and so decided to abandon his fellow soldiers so that he could grandstand his disapproval.

Bad form. He got off light, considering his offense. If it was me, I would have had him shot. Not for his political grandstanding, but for violating the trust of his comrades to be there and support each other when things got rough. He broke faith with them, and thus with his adopted (not for much longer, I hope) country.

mh

.
"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

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I can understand the reluctance of military personnel to refuse to follow orders even if they believe them unlawful. They stand to be severely punished if the system doesn't agree with them, and the military has a track record of closing ranks and protecting its officers. The My Lai affair was a classic example of such a cover up.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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I can understand the reluctance of military personnel to refuse to follow orders even if they believe them unlawful. They stand to be severely punished if the system doesn't agree with them, and the military has a track record of closing ranks and protecting its officers. The My Lai affair was a classic example of such a cover up.



Yes, it is certainly understandable. We are fortunate that incidents like My Lai (and the Iraqi jail) are rare exceptions.

However, I maintain my earlier remark that in Mejia's case, it's all moot. He was never ordered to commit unlawful acts - he just disagreed with the politics of the war, which is kind of stupid, considering his position as a grunt, rather than as a policy-maker.

A better example of what we're discussing might be Col Billy Mitchell, someone whose military ideas were so radical, so visionary, that he was pilloried as a heretic.

"They may think they have silenced Mitchell, but his ideas will go marching on, and those who crucified him will be the first to put his aviation suggestions into practice. He is a 1925 John Brown."

edit to change URL to a better brief summary of Mitchell case.

mh

.
"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

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I believe the oath that all members of the military take when joining says something to the effect of "will follow all lawful orders by the Commander in Chief".

I wish I knew more about how the innards of military life worked where I could venture an educate guess as to how one would determine "unlawful" orders etc.

Clearly though, an order to deploy with your unit is not "unlawful". Even being ordered to fight in a battle (in a war you don't agree with personally) is not "unlawful". If he was ordered to go into a village and "kill everyone" without discrimination, or with extreme prejudice, that, I believe could be challenged as an unlawful order.

Someone correct me, as I'm not a JAG, or even a lawyer, or even in the service.
So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

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I think you have to have committed a federal crime before you are dishonorably discharged. It usually comes with a sentence to Leavenworth.
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The bad conduct discharge is not as bad as the dishonorable discharge. Apparently he served honorably up until now. Back in the old days some employers would not hire you if you had nothing short of an honorable discharge.
dead reckoning vertical


Nowadays, you just can't get a government job. Any other job it's the fact that the person possibly has a character flaw that prevents them from being successful rather than a bad conduct discharge on a record. You don't have to tell your employees you served.
_____________________________

"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

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