should this guy have been executed?

[Newbie 0]

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But i guess that costs too much, so we may as well just shoot the rabid dogs now and save the tax payer some money eh?

Why do people insist on thinking humans shouldn't fit into the rules of Darwinism like the rest of the animals?

because we have the ability to for cognative thought, unlike any (at least, known to us presently) other member of the animal kingdom.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[Newbie 0]

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We're not practicing genocide here, we're culling some of the defectives.

not that im comparing you to him, but that one sentence rings true of what Hitler said about the extermination of the "inferior" races (see blacks, gypsies, jews, mentally retarded etc)

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[Jimbo 0]

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but that one sentence rings true of what Hitler said about the extermination of the "inferior" races (see blacks, gypsies, jews, mentally retarded etc)

*DING-DING-DING*

Ladies and Gentlemen, this thread is officially closed. Move along, nothing to see here...

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[Newbie 0]

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'A schizophrenic who tried to kill two women by pushing them off a Tube platform has been sent to a mental hospital indefinitely.'

Err.............We gave him treatment in a psych hospital. In Texas they executed the man

You've got to be kidding Dave. We are by no means perfect but we're far from executing the mentaly ill.

i know, and for that much i'm thankful - but we, like the US, have a similar problem - public money is just not there to support mentally ill patients receiving the treatement they need, and they end up on the streets. Whethere they kill or not, or end up executed or locked up for life is neither here nor there - at the end of the day, society is not throwing these people a life line, they are throwing them out, ignoring the consequences of those actions, and to me that's not the way i would like things to go.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[kelpdiver 2]

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Do you feel drunk drivers that run down others with their car should also be executed? If the court decides they are likely to do it again? YesOr drunk drivers who haven't hurt anyone yet - since clearly it's only a matter of time before they do so? Innocent until proven guilty in this country - there are different penalties for the actual crime of driving drunk

Or what about drivers who kill others because they were fumbling with the cd player?If the court decides they are likely to do it again? Yes

So you would eliminate the distinctions of 1st degree, 2nd degree, manslaughter and involuntary manslaugher, and just execute all of them? Our current legal system punishes based on intent.

How exactly would the court rule if a drunk driver is likely to do it again? Or an inattentive driver? No one plans to get in an accident once, let alone a second time. I think your reasoning is contradictory. You talk about innocent until proven guilty, yet you propose execution if the court guesses they might do it again. But if not, they just get the usual penalty (1-3 years)?

[kallend 2,151]

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Do you feel drunk drivers that run down others with their car should also be executed? If the court decides they are likely to do it again? YesOr drunk drivers who haven't hurt anyone yet - since clearly it's only a matter of time before they do so? Innocent until proven guilty in this country - there are different penalties for the actual crime of driving drunk

Or what about drivers who kill others because they were fumbling with the cd player?If the court decides they are likely to do it again? Yes

So you would eliminate the distinctions of 1st degree, 2nd degree, manslaughter and involuntary manslaugher, and just execute all of them? Our current legal system punishes based on intent.

How exactly would the court rule if a drunk driver is likely to do it again? Or an inattentive driver? No one plans to get in an accident once, let alone a second time. I think your reasoning is contradictory. You talk about innocent until proven guilty, yet you propose execution if the court guesses they might do it again. But if not, they just get the usual penalty (1-3 years)?

Getting drunk and then driving is not an involuntary act. No-one who holds a drivers' license is unaware of the risks of drinking and driving.

IMO, killing someone while dui is HOMICIDE.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Gawain 0]

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Getting drunk and then driving is not an involuntary act. No-one who holds a drivers' license is unaware of the risks of drinking and driving.

IMO, killing someone while dui is HOMICIDE.

Dude, we agree on something! Whoa...I'm feeling dizzy...

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[kelpdiver 2]

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Getting drunk and then driving is not an involuntary act. No-one who holds a drivers' license is unaware of the risks of drinking and driving.

IMO, killing someone while dui is HOMICIDE.

1st degree? 2nd?

In the past, it was treated as involuntary manslaughter. Now it has gotten considerably closer to where it should be. But at what level of drunkness is it clearly hazardous? There's a world of difference between .2 and .08.

But still we have drivers going 75mph in heavy fog and killing bicyclists or bikers and getting a 3-12 month sentence.

I'm not ready to execute people who are negligent, or make unintended mistakes. I would like to see them restricted from driving 4 wheel vehicles for a long period of time.

[billvon 3,120]

>Why would you want to defend someone if you thought they were
>guilty?

Because sometimes they are not guilty.

>Why do people insist on thinking humans shouldn't fit into the
>rules of Darwinism like the rest of the animals?

Because few humans are callous enough to let a sick child die without trying to save him. We have greatly hampered evolution because of that trait.

In this case, if Darwinism were to rule, the murderer would win. He had proved himself stronger, and he would have more chances to reproduce than the man he killed. Is that how you think it should work?

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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without turning this into a pro/anti death penalty post, i'm wondering what peoples views are on this - and similar cases - where mentally ill convicts are sentenced to death.

...
Mentally ill inmate executed

Kelsey Patterson was executed by lethal injection Tuesday for the fatal shootings of a man and a woman.


HUNTSVILLE, Texas (AP) -- A convicted killer diagnosed as mentally ill was put to death despite a highly unusual recommendation from the state parole board that he be spared.

Kelsey Patterson, a 50-year-old paranoid schizophrenic, jabbered about being innocent and demanded his rights just before receiving a lethal injection Tuesday evening. His last words were a plea: "Give me my life back."

Sounds like he knew what the fuck was going on, i.e. there's no "insanity" or "mental illness" defense here. A person who "doesn't know what's going on" wouldn't have the presence of mind to assert innocence about what he didn't know was going on, right?

BTW, do you really expect that this will not turn into a pro/anti death penalty thread just because you said, "Without turning this into a pro/anti death penalty post"??

I think murderers should be put to death, yes. Murdering someone justifies your society extinguishing your life -- humanely, fine, but definitely it should be done.

Humanity, society, should not have to suffer the burden of having people circulating among normal good people, when they have it in them to commit murder. I think those who oppose putting these murderers to death should be forced to be the guards who keep them incarcerated until they die -- because as far as I'm concerned, a living murderer in a prison is, til the day he dies, a potential escapee or releasee. It happens a LOT, and it shouldn't happen at ALL. Prison breaks, prison escapes, unjustifiable paroles or releases... dead murderers don't leave a prison with the capacity to commit more murders.

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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This article is unfortunately rather short in the details. Is the state's claim that he is not mentally ill? Had that been substantiated?

The claim that there is no life w/o parole is not a legitimate reason. No one is going to parole Manson. 4 shootings is hard to get past. It does beg the question of why TX doesn't have that sentencing option.

Never say never.
John Hinckley Jr. has been getting out on unsupervised visits, and he tried to murder a fucking president.

How do you know that some bullshit bleeding heart idiot on a parole board won't fall hook-line-and-sinker for a conrition act on Manson's part?

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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>ok, and when the hospital free's them in a couple of years, cause
> they are "rehabilitated" and they turn around and kill again...... that
> wont help the victim or their families will it?

And who is to blame if that two year old kills again? Again, the parents, until they are of legal age. Similarly, if the hospital never clears them, they never get a chance to do anything like that again. If they do clear them, then they are cognizant adults, and are liable for their own actions.

I have watched for, but NEVER seen, a story in which a parole board paroled a murderer, the parolee murdered again, and the members of the parole board, responsible for loosing the piece of shit on society again (after he's been safely captured and caged) , and held to answer for his murders. No one EVER seems to pay the price for making a stupid-ass decision that puts a murderer or rapist back into society.

The day we can put the psychiatrist or parole board member on trial for murder because their charges went out after release and murdered again, that's the day I'll consider whether I support the idea of letting murderers EVER get released.

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[billvon 3,120]

>I have watched for, but NEVER seen, a story in which a parole board
> paroled a murderer, the parolee murdered again, and the members
> of the parole board, responsible for loosing the piece of shit on
> society again (after he's been safely captured and caged) , and held
> to answer for his murders.

You are confusing two different things.

First is someone who kills someone due to, say, a DUI. We as a society have decided on a range of penalties for that. Sometimes it's death, but more commonly is imprisonment. Once they serve that penalty, they are released. Judges, juries and parole boards determine how long that penalty is. That's the law. If you want it changed, vote for a change, or support people who will change it.

The second issue is that of a person who is judged legally insane. Say a disabled veteran has multiple personality disorder, and 99% of the time is perfectly normal. But certain situations (say, hearing gunfire) makes him essentially lose his mind. Someone draws a gun and starts firing near him one day; he heads towards the guy, tackles someone (not the shooter) and strangles him. He has no memory of the event afterwards.

At his trial he may plead insanity. At that point the judge/jury has two options - find him innocent by reason of insanity or find him guilty. If they find him innocent per that reason, he gets locked up until competent doctors can testify that the problem won't reoccur. Can they say that with 100% certainty? No; no one can say anything with that sort of certainty. But sometimes you have to go with the best available (rather than perfect) information.

[Newbie 0]

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but that one sentence rings true of what Hitler said about the extermination of the "inferior" races (see blacks, gypsies, jews, mentally retarded etc)

*DING-DING-DING*

Ladies and Gentlemen, this thread is officially closed. Move along, nothing to see here...

-
Jim

why? I said i wasn't comparing him to Hitler, i'm just saying that when someone justifies the killing of someone who is mentally ill as the "culling of defectives", it does have an tone of Hitlerism about it. That statement is based on historical fact, not my personal opinion of diablopilot or his politics. I don't know if diablo meant it like that, but that was my interpretation, and maybe i got it wrong.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[Ron 10]

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Err.............We gave him treatment in a psych hospital. In Texas they executed the man

You took a man that was known for years to be unstable and let him run around...Then when he was in a hospital, you let him out on a day pass while he was saying he wanted to kill people...

Uh...You think thats smart?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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Miscarriages happen a LOT more often than people realise. And a miscarriage is far more likely to happen when someone is not given decent legal representation the first time through court.

This debate was not about legal representation...It was about should a mentally unstabe person who kills be executed...You want to talk about how unfair the legal system is...Fine, but not here.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Newbie 0]

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without turning this into a pro/anti death penalty post, i'm wondering what peoples views are on this - and similar cases - where mentally ill convicts are sentenced to death.

...
Mentally ill inmate executed

Kelsey Patterson was executed by lethal injection Tuesday for the fatal shootings of a man and a woman.


HUNTSVILLE, Texas (AP) -- A convicted killer diagnosed as mentally ill was put to death despite a highly unusual recommendation from the state parole board that he be spared.

Kelsey Patterson, a 50-year-old paranoid schizophrenic, jabbered about being innocent and demanded his rights just before receiving a lethal injection Tuesday evening. His last words were a plea: "Give me my life back."

Sounds like he knew what the fuck was going on, i.e. there's no "insanity" or "mental illness" defense here. A person who "doesn't know what's going on" wouldn't have the presence of mind to assert innocence about what he didn't know was going on, right?

BTW, do you really expect that this will not turn into a pro/anti death penalty thread just because you said, "Without turning this into a pro/anti death penalty post"??

I think murderers should be put to death, yes. Murdering someone justifies your society extinguishing your life -- humanely, fine, but definitely it should be done.

Humanity, society, should not have to suffer the burden of having people circulating among normal good people, when they have it in them to commit murder. I think those who oppose putting these murderers to death should be forced to be the guards who keep them incarcerated until they die -- because as far as I'm concerned, a living murderer in a prison is, til the day he dies, a potential escapee or releasee. It happens a LOT, and it shouldn't happen at ALL. Prison breaks, prison escapes, unjustifiable paroles or releases... dead murderers don't leave a prison with the capacity to commit more murders.

-

i said "without turning it into a pro/anti death penalty" post in the hope people wouldn't get sucked into that side of things (which i knew was going to be difficult for most, as most people tend to be passionate about it one way or the other). I wanted people's opinions really on whether mentally ill people should pay the ultimate price for something they did, even if they might not comprehend what they have done, or how they came to do it. Should these people be put to death for something they might not even be mentally culpable for?

Your view on humanity/society not having to suffer these sorts of people walking around is utopian and not very compassionate - 1 in 5 people it is said has a mental "defect" waiting to happen, and how many times do we read about someone killing even though their neighbours/partner/family/work colleague said they were always just your "nice kind normal sort of guy"? I understand where you are coming from, and i don't want severely psychotic mental patients wandering the streets, but my view is they should not be allowed out - even on a day release - until such time as it is known they won't be a hard to themselves or anyone else. If you can't prove that, then they need to go through more treatment. I don't think the way to solve this problem is by culling these people, as has been suggested, but thats just my own humble opinion.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[SBS 0]

When people believe in the death penalty, I have never understood why it is any different for mentally ill people. If it is an issue of vengeance, then ok, maybe we would want to spare someone because "yeah, it wasn't their fault". But if it's an issue of deterance or protection, etc., then what difference does it make what his/her issues are? You commit the crime, you pay the price...regardless of mental state.

I have always had this one question, though...if someone kills another person, barring self defense and special circumstances, of course, am I wrong to think that they have some sort of mental illness? Whatever a shrink may say, I just have trouble believing that someone who takes another person's life is completely there upstairs.

-S

_____________
I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness...

[Skyrad 0]

LOL..................

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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without turning this into a pro/anti death penalty post, i'm wondering what peoples views are on this - and similar cases - where mentally ill convicts are sentenced to death.

...
Mentally ill inmate executed

Kelsey Patterson was executed by lethal injection Tuesday for the fatal shootings of a man and a woman.


HUNTSVILLE, Texas (AP) -- A convicted killer diagnosed as mentally ill was put to death despite a highly unusual recommendation from the state parole board that he be spared.

Kelsey Patterson, a 50-year-old paranoid schizophrenic, jabbered about being innocent and demanded his rights just before receiving a lethal injection Tuesday evening. His last words were a plea: "Give me my life back."

Sounds like he knew what the fuck was going on, i.e. there's no "insanity" or "mental illness" defense here. A person who "doesn't know what's going on" wouldn't have the presence of mind to assert innocence about what he didn't know was going on, right?

-

Incorrect............
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR510862004?open&of=ENG-USA

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[D22369 0]

First of all, I added the link to Bundy to show that even our police can be fooled, And the doctors who treat the mentally unstable are also highly trained professionals......read the article, you may learn something, I dont think you understand that when someone takes lives, they are not in their right mind, and then can be called insane....... Taking a life in defense of yourself or a loved one is one thing, we are talking murder here ! Whether it offends you or not, my opinion is when you take a life INTENTIONALLY you forfeit your life. To respond to your question of drunk driving, I believe it should result in incarceration for punishment, as they probably do not need rehabilitation. Changing the cd.......same thing, NEGLIGENCE is no excuse, but there is no INTENT, so punishment (incarceration) would seem to be the order of the day.

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[D22369 0]

In a facetious way, you may be on to something.........


Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[diablopilot 2]

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In this case, if Darwinism were to rule, the murderer would win. He had proved himself stronger, and he would have more chances to reproduce than the man he killed. Is that how you think it should work?

That's one way to look at it I guess. Or the "pack" to ensure it's survival would eliminate the "defective".

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[tunaplanet 0]

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without turning this into a pro/anti death penalty post, i'm wondering what peoples views are on this - and similar cases - where mentally ill convicts are sentenced to death.

Kill them. It's unfortunate, but justice must be served. Sometimes people are dealt a shitty hand in life.

Forty-two

[diablopilot 2]

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IMO, killing someone while dui is HOMICIDE.

Yep. 100 % agreed. We'd accuse someone of homicide if they got drunk and killd someone while foolong around with a gun, so why not a car. Just because the weapon is different?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.