should this guy have been executed?

[Newbie 0]

without turning this into a pro/anti death penalty post, i'm wondering what peoples views are on this - and similar cases - where mentally ill convicts are sentenced to death.

On a side note, why is it Texas has no "life with no parole" sentence? If this were the case, then at the least, when those classed as mentally ill or incompetent come for sentencing, there could at least be an alternative to executing someone who might not even be aware of what they have done or why they are on death row.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/05/19/texas.execution.ap/index.html

Quote

Mentally ill inmate executed

Kelsey Patterson was executed by lethal injection Tuesday for the fatal shootings of a man and a woman.


HUNTSVILLE, Texas (AP) -- A convicted killer diagnosed as mentally ill was put to death despite a highly unusual recommendation from the state parole board that he be spared.

Kelsey Patterson, a 50-year-old paranoid schizophrenic, jabbered about being innocent and demanded his rights just before receiving a lethal injection Tuesday evening. His last words were a plea: "Give me my life back."

Gov. Rick Perry rejected the parole board's recommendation moments after the Supreme Court also refused to stay the execution, punishment for a double slaying in East Texas almost 12 years ago.

Patterson's execution renewed the legal quandary of whether it is proper to execute an inmate who is mentally ill after the Supreme Court ruled it unconstitutional to execute the mentally retarded. The high court has also said an inmate may not be executed if he doesn't know why he's on death row and the punishment he faces.

At least three mentally ill prisoners have been executed in Texas since the mental retardation ruling two years ago.

In a statement, Perry cited the findings of no fewer than 10 state and federal judicial reviews examining Patterson's claims of mental illness and competency. "In each instance," he said, "the courts have determined there is no legal bar to his execution."

"This defendant is a very violent individual. Texas has no life without parole sentencing option, and no one can guarantee this defendant would never be freed to commit other crimes were his sentence commuted."

Patteron's lawyer, J. Gary Hart, criticized Perry's reasoning.

"He's basically saying that all we can do with someone like him is take him out back and shoot him," Hart said.

The parole board action, which came Monday in a 5-1 vote, marked the first time since Texas resumed executions in 1982 that a commutation was recommended at such a late stage.

Patterson was condemned for the 1992 shootings of Dorthy Harris, 41, a secretary at an oil company office in Palestine, about 100 miles southeast of Dallas, and her boss, Louis Oates, 63.

"I started the day off very pessimistic but it ended as I prayed it would," said Harris' daughter, Michele Smith, who watched the execution.

Patterson previously was charged with two nonfatal shootings but never was tried after being found mentally incompetent.

Throughout his capital murder trial, outbursts earned Patterson repeated expulsions from the courtroom. He frequently talked about "remote control devices" and "implants" that controlled him.

While on death row, he told people and wrote nearly incomprehensible letters to courts about having amnesty and a permanent stay of execution.

State prosecutors successfully opposed Patterson's appeals, citing his references to stays of execution as indication he was aware of his punishment.

In March, Perry for the first time since taking office in 2000 commuted the death sentence of a prisoner. That inmate is mentally retarded, and was not within hours of a scheduled execution.

In 1998, four days before former self-confessed serial killer Henry Lee Lucas was to die, then-Gov. George W. Bush commuted Lucas' sentence after questions were raised about his conviction. It was the only death sentence commuted by Bush in his six years in office when 152 executions were carried out.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[D22369 0]

He took a life, paid with his own. debt settled.

You would put down a rabid dog, why should he be different?

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[kelpdiver 2]

This article is unfortunately rather short in the details. Is the state's claim that he is not mentally ill? Had that been substantiated?

The claim that there is no life w/o parole is not a legitimate reason. No one is going to parole Manson. 4 shootings is hard to get past. It does beg the question of why TX doesn't have that sentencing option.

[mpsniper98 0]

i've always thought that it's the behavior that should be considered in sentencing, not the nuances of each individual person. if you do the crime, you do the time. we have niether the time nor the tax dollars to figure out why people do the things they do. we just make the punishment fit the crime and move on.

NBFT

[kelpdiver 2]

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You would put down a rabid dog, why should he be different?
Roy

Humans have more rights than dogs. With that we believe that sometimes it's okay to take a life, and sometimes it happens without intent and the person is not held to the same level of punishment.

[D22369 0]

Your tune would change drastically if it was your family member this freak killed wouldnt it?

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[billvon 3,120]

>You would put down a rabid dog, why should he be different?

Cause people have more rights than dogs.

>Your tune would change drastically if it was your family member this
>freak killed wouldnt it?

If a two year old child played with a gun, and it went off, and killed your wife, would you insist that the child be put to death? If not, why not?

[D22369 0]

Apples and oranges, we are speaking of a willfull murder, not an absolute accident, he was coherent enough to pick victims, He was coherent enought to die.

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[mpsniper98 0]

i'd limit the guns magazine capacity. obviously, that kid shouldn't have more than 6 or 7 shots if that's what he/she is gonna do with them.

NBFT

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Apples and oranges, we are speaking of a willfull murder, not an absolute accident, he was coherent enough to pick victims, He was coherent enought to die.

As I said, that part isn't clear. The quoted article do not address will.

And your example was a rabid dog - it certainly didn't choose to become so, did it?

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Your tune would change drastically if it was your family member this freak killed wouldnt it?

Roy

Do you propose that punishment be set based on emotion rather than reason?

If a family member is killed, I am not qualified to rule on matters of justice.

[D22369 0]

how bout " not in its right mind?" or would that confuse some people......

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[billvon 3,120]

>Apples and oranges, we are speaking of a willfull murder, not an
> absolute accident, he was coherent enough to pick victims, He was
> coherent enought to die.

The two year old could be pissed at someone and point the gun at them because he saw that in a movie. The critical issue here is that a two year old is not responsible for his actions. If an adult is not responsible for his or her actions, two things happen:

1. They lose their freedom; someone else (a hospital, a guardian) takes charge of their lives.

2. They are no longer liable for what they do.

And if they kill someone? Their guardian bears the responsibility, just as the parent of the two year old bears the responsibility for letting them get a loaded gun.

[D22369 0]

emotion or reason? how bout "JUSTICE" for the victims families..... too much touchy feely bullshit about the rights of the criminals, they decided to step outside societies rules.....they should pay the penalty.

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[D22369 0]

And if they kill someone? Their guardian bears the responsibility, just as the parent of the two year old bears the responsibility for letting them get a loaded gun.


ok, and when the hospital free's them in a couple of years, cause they are "rehabilitated" and they turn around and kill again...... that wont help the victim or their families will it?

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[billvon 3,120]

>ok, and when the hospital free's them in a couple of years, cause
> they are "rehabilitated" and they turn around and kill again...... that
> wont help the victim or their families will it?

And who is to blame if that two year old kills again? Again, the parents, until they are of legal age. Similarly, if the hospital never clears them, they never get a chance to do anything like that again. If they do clear them, then they are cognizant adults, and are liable for their own actions.

[D22369 0]

I agree about the parent child analogy,

but are you saying that if the mental person kills again after rehabilitation then they would be subject to the death penalty or life in prison?


I have to go back to work now, but will respond later;

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[billvon 3,120]

>but are you saying that if the mental person kills again after
> rehabilitation then they would be subject to the death penalty or life
> in prison?

Yes, whatever the penalty is for his action. It may be that there are people out there that are simply not responsible for their actions, but once a competent medical decision is made that they have improved enough to be responsible for their actions, aware of right and wrong etc - well, they're responsible.

[Ron 10]

Quote

If a two year old child played with a gun, and it went off, and killed your wife, would you insist that the child be put to death? If not, why not?

Its called intent.

This guy shot 4 people...It wa not an accident.

If you let him, he would have shot 2 more.

Kill them. they will never be safe for release.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 3,120]

>Its called intent. This guy shot 4 people...It wa not an accident.

Same question. A two year old finds a gun, wants to get his neighbor that he doesn't like, so he points it at him and pulls the trigger, like he saw on TV. Do you execute the child?

[diablopilot 2]

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He took a life, paid with his own. debt settled.

You would put down a rabid dog, why should he be different?

You know I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels that way.

BTW in my book someone who commits murder (not self defence) is not in their right mind anyway, i.e. they are insane. It shouldn't be an excuse.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Newbie 0]

Quote

Quote

He took a life, paid with his own. debt settled.

You would put down a rabid dog, why should he be different?

You know I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels that way.

BTW in my book someone who commits murder (not self defence) is not in their right mind anyway, i.e. they are insane. It shouldn't be an excuse.

but if you use this arguement, all murderers are "insane", hence they could all get off on an insanity defense case, couldn't they?

If someone doesn't know right from wrong (and i'm not sure in this case what i think, i just know the guy definitely seemed to have mental problems), surely it beggars the question of why are they allowed to walk the streets like this anyway. They should be in a secure institution, either for our or their own protection, where they should be receiving some kind of treatment.
But i guess that costs too much, so we may as well just shoot the rabid dogs now and save the tax payer some money eh?

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[D22369 0]

Quote

***He took a life, paid with his own. debt settled.

You would put down a rabid dog, why should he be different?


You know I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels that way.

BTW in my book someone who commits murder (not self defence) is not in their right mind anyway, i.e. they are insane. It shouldn't be an excuse.

Unfortunately In this country we seem to be a minority......Too many bleeding hearts. Hell follow this link to ted bundy, this sick bastard took a lot of lives........when he was executed he had people on one side crying and praying for a stay of execution........and on the other side people were jubulant chanting, burn bundy burn.

Roy

http://www.crimelibrary.com/bundy/attack.htm

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[jakee 1,596]

Quote

BTW in my book someone who commits murder (not self defence) is not in their right mind anyway, i.e. they are insane. It shouldn't be an excuse.

Good luck with that rose tinted view of humanity.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[mr2mk1g 10]

One thing that bugs me is the lack of decent legal representation these people get. Sure they’re accused of some really terrible things but lawyers won’t touch em with a barge poll. This really worries me. The people on death row are often represented by the dregs of the legal profession. There are a lot of good people doing pro-bono work, but all too often it is left to lawyers with little left in the way of a career or simply no experience. This is because society effectively ends a lawyer’s career if they represent someone who is demonised by the press. No one with a career dare go near these people for fear of effectively losing their ability to earn.

I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve gone to London and someone’s tried to recruit me to go out to the states and help. There are a lot of Good-Samaritan barristers who spend their own money travelling to the states to give free legal advice to death row convicts. I’m sorry to say that it’s treated like aid to a third world country in the profession.

I’ve briefly considered it but I’m left with the realisation that I simply do not have anything like the personal finance I’d need to be able to support myself. There is no government money for it, you better believe that there aint no money from the defendants and moreover the public doesn’t want there to be any money for it.

Everyone deserves proper legal advice. The more serious the punishment the more certain I would want to be of the conviction. How certain are you of legal advice given by a drugged up hippy lawyer living in a tee-pee, who can’t get a brief any other way? That is a real example – the lawyer who represented Aileen Wuornos, (who by the way was also a raving nut bag when she was executed in 2002).