Columbine Shooter's Parents Speak

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Um, yeah...had you read my post and Andy's response, you would have seen nearly 30 posts ago that Andy established that he was mistaken and thinking of another investigative piece on the Columbine shootings.

So any guy who tells a story in an entertaining, attention-getting way to suit his whimsy and agenda is "sick"? Sheesh, we all must be sick, then. I think it's obvious that Michael Moore is in the entertainment business writing books and making films; whether they're classified as "documentary" or not is arbitrary.

_Pm

You and I and everyone else here know very well that Moore intended for his audience to come away from that movie (an alleged "documentary" -- which won an OSCAR for allegedly being a "documentary") believing that what they had seen was a depiction of FACT.

Don't give me bullshit about how he was just out to "entertain" us.

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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They say it's not their fault and have no need to be forgiven.

Of course not. Everyone knows it's the fault of the gun manufacturers.

[sarcasm off]

i don't think it's the manufacturers fault. But if you ask me, being able to legally buy weapons like what they did at 17 is nuts.

Um, I think you're confused,
because there was NOTHING legal about the way in which they obtained their firearms. Numerous laws were broken. Where did you get the idea that they "legally bought" those weapons?

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[Newbie 0]

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They say it's not their fault and have no need to be forgiven.

Of course not. Everyone knows it's the fault of the gun manufacturers.

[sarcasm off]

i don't think it's the manufacturers fault. But if you ask me, being able to legally buy weapons like what they did at 17 is nuts.

Um, I think you're confused,
because there was NOTHING legal about the way in which they obtained their firearms. Numerous laws were broken. Where did you get the idea that they "legally bought" those weapons?

-

In this article :

http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/0822fata1.shtml

it says:

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In December, they picked up three guns -- a Hi Point 9mm carbine rifle and two shotguns -- at a gun show.

A Gilpin County man named J.D. "Jimmie" Tanner has them monthly at the Denver Merchandise Mart on East 58th Avenue.

Robyn already had turned 18, and Dylan and Eric apparently thought they needed her along. Actually, at 17, either of them could have bought the guns from an unlicensed dealer at the Tanner show.

Robyn has said she figured Dylan and Eric wanted the guns for hunting, or maybe they were collectors. She wasn't sure. To her, these were just cool guys she had fun with.

They gave her cash. She showed the seller her driver's license. They got their guns

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[craichead 0]

No, I don't KNOW for certain what Michael Moore intended. However, I think that what Michael Moore expects is for people to think for themselves. Anyone who doesn't realise that the movie is meant as entertainment (albeit with a political agenda), well...has got bigger problems.

Do you really think that the Oscars are the definitive source on what can be classified as a documentary? I'll clue you in, they're in the entertainment business, too.

Bowling for Columbine is interesting, thought-provoking, but above all else entertaining...which is moot because AndyMan was thinking about a different film when he mentioned it.

_Pm

__
"Scared of love, love and aeroplanes...falling out, I said takes no brains." -- Andy Partridge (XTC)

[Shotgun 1]

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So you cite for me some of the same "news" sources (excluding Fox, I guess) that show video clips of people firing FULL AUTO rifles when talking about efforts to renew the "assault weapons ban" and ask me to treat the claims as credible?

I didn't ask you to treat anything as credible. I just asked if you could point me to a more reliable source for information stating the contrary (like maybe an interview with their bowling teacher or classmates??). As I stated before, I've seen numerous claims on both sides of this "fact", but I haven't seen anything yet that could convince me either way... So I think it's all speculation unless you can find out from someone who was actually there.

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Okay, so let's split hairs: assume that the killers did go to bowling class.

That does not change the fact that Moore filled his movie with lies.

I never said it did.

It seemed obvious to me when watching that movie that Moore had a personal agenda. Whether he lied or not, I can't be sure... but I definitely felt that I was watching some sort of editorial and not a "documentary". (So I think we agree there. )

[billvon 3,116]

>- The Lockheed plant in Columbine did not make "WMD"

The missile behind them during the interview was a Titan missile; these are still in service as ICBM's. Nowadays they are used primarily as launchers for satellites.

>Charlton Heston and the NRA did NOT traipse into town and merrily
>celebrate guns just days after the massacre at Columbine.

The NRA had a meeting in Denver shortly after the Columbine shooting. In their defense it had been planned before the shooting. A quote from Heston's speech at that meeting on May 4th, 1999:

"I have a message from the mayor, Mr. Wellington Webb, the mayor of Denver. He sent me this and said don't come here, we don't want you here. . . .

Don't come here? We're already here. This community is our home. Every community in America is our home. We are a 128-year-old fixture of mainstream America. The Second Amendment ethic of lawful, responsible firearm ownership spans the broadest cross section of American life imaginable. So, we have the same right as all other citizens to be here."

The Columbine shooting was April 20, 1999.

>- You CANNOT just walk into that bank, open a CD, and walk out with a shiny new rifle!


------------------------------------------
Chicago Sun-Times
January 28, 2001

Open a bank account, get a gun.

North Country Financial Corp. is exchanging firearms for deposits, giving away rifles and shotguns in lieu of the interest that normally accompanies accounts.

Put as little as $ 869 in a 20-year certificate of deposit, and the Traverse City-based bank will hand over a Weatherby Inc. Mark V Synthetic rifle that lists for $ 779. Deposit more, and you have a choice of six Weatherby shotguns or a limited-edition rifle.

The bank has 28 branches, mostly in Michigan's Upper Peninsula, and the guns-for-CDs program is a potent weapon in the fight for Americans' savings at a time of shrinking bank deposits.

--------------------------------------------

Not even sure what the big deal is about that one. So what if they give away free guns to qualified customers, assuming they comply with all the other laws concerning selling guns?

[AndyMan 7]

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- The Lockheed plant in Columbine did not make "WMD"
- You CANNOT just walk into that bank, open a CD, and walk out with a shiny new rifle!
- Charlton Heston and the NRA did NOT traipse into town and merrily celebrate guns just days after the massacre at Columbine.
- Many "quotes" by Heston featured in the movie were pasted together; some "sentences" were constructed from parts of sentences separated by entire paragraphs.
- In some cases, editing techniques strongly imply that two separate sentences were made in the same speech, when in fact Heston is shown wearing one suit, the scene is spliced, and Heston is then wearing a different suit. The effect is still that one sentence followed the other in a single speech.

There are some REALLY GOOD criticisms of Bowling for Columbine.

You didn't hit ANY of them.

I'll give you a hint. That big rocket in the background was a Titan IV rocket. If there ever was a weapon of mass destruction, that would be it. Not only was the Titan IV made in Littleton Colorado, it was designed there, too.

Why would you deny that? I mean.... did you even see the movie?

I'm surprised you're denying Heston said what he did. If I were a proud American gun-owner (I'm neither), I would be glad to have such an outspoken spokesman. BTW - there is no evidence - anywhere, that anyone who doesn't wear a tinfoil hat would believe, to indicated any abnormal editing on either his speech or interview.

As for the bank, well - see attached:

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I'll give you a hint. That big rocket in the background was a Titan IV rocket. If there ever was a weapon of mass destruction, that would be it. Not only was the Titan IV made in Littleton Colorado, it was designed there, too.

How do you figure? If I was going to pick a single american rocket for that designation, it would be the Trident or the Peacekeeper (MX) with 10 MIRVs, not a payload rocket that never had a nuclear warhead for payload. Don't confuse it with I or II.

when I think of Titan, I think of unplanned explosions. When my job relied on a successful launch, I was happy it was on a Delta II instead.

[Gawain 0]

There was never a Titan IV ICBM. The Titan II rocket was a multipurpose platform, not solely a ballistic missile. The WMD was the warhead, which was likely a single reentry vehicle GE Mk6 (made by General Electric), armed with a 9MT thermonuclear device (made by who knows...Sandia?...somewhere in New Mexico maybe?).

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[kallend 2,148]

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There was never a Titan IV ICBM. The Titan II rocket was a multipurpose platform, not solely a ballistic missile. The WMD was the warhead, which was likely a single reentry vehicle GE Mk6 (made by General Electric), armed with a 9MT thermonuclear device (made by who knows...Sandia?...somewhere in New Mexico maybe?).

Is this a semantics issue? There is a Titan IV used by the military but it is not supposed to be used for nukes.
www.air-and-space.com/19961220%20Titan%20IV.htm

But who knows what might be on an "undisclosed military payload"?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Gawain 0]

My point being that the rocket itself is not a WMD, and the Titan IV was never a part of the Air Force's Ballistic Missile arsenal. I was also trying to point out that even the Titan II was not solely an ICBM.

Semantics, maybe. But the initial statement I was responding to was pretty far off the mark.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Kennedy 0]

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Charlton Heston and the NRA did NOT traipse into town and merrily celebrate guns just days after the massacre at Columbine.

The NRA had a meeting in Denver shortly after the Columbine shooting. In their defense it had been planned before the shooting. A quote from Heston's speech at that meeting on May 4th, 1999:

"I have a message from the mayor, Mr. Wellington Webb, the mayor of Denver. He sent me this and said don't come here, we don't want you here. . . .

First off, the mayor can kiss my and every other gun owner's pasty white ass (or whatever skintone they have without sunshine).

Second, it would have been a breach of the bylaws to move or reschedule the annual meeting. There are requirements to set it so far in advance and it cannot be changed.

Third, they didn't come in to town "to celebrate guns," they came in to hold the annual meeting for a civil rights organization. Whose side would you be on if some town mayor told the NAACP not to come to town, that they were not welcome?

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>- You CANNOT just walk into that bank, open a CD, and walk out with a shiny new rifle!

More sensationalism by the Chicago Sun-Times. It can't be that the "bank will hand over a Weatherby." In other places, they have given out certificates to be redeemed for firearms after a NICS check at a FFL. Michael Moore had to find that rifle, bring it into the bank, stage the scene where he picked it up, and so on. He was a director there, not a documenter.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[kelpdiver 2]

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Is this a semantics issue? There is a Titan IV used by the military but it is not supposed to be used for nukes.
www.air-and-space.com/19961220%20Titan%20IV.htm

But who knows what might be on an "undisclosed military payload"?

We already have several perfectly suitable launch platforms for nukes. I can't think of any reason to use a Titan IV instead. It isn't a WMD.

[Newbie 0]

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Michael Moore had to find that rifle, bring it into the bank, stage the scene where he picked it up, and so on.

i'm not saying this isn't true, but can you show me evidence for this? I'm genuinely curious to know if this was the case.
Thanks

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[billvon 3,116]

>First off, the mayor can kiss my and every other gun owner's pasty white ass . . .

Not arguing whether the mayor was right or not. The fact is that the NRA held a meeting in Denver shortly after the massacre at Columbine, and refused to reschedule it. Hence Moore was correct.

>More sensationalism by the Chicago Sun-Times. It can't be that
>the "bank will hand over a Weatherby."

That's what the store's ad said; that's what the news article said. If you went to the store and were denied a weapon you might have a good argument against that statement, but the evidence points, once again, to Moore being right.

I think Moore is a rude, obnoxious guy who used his "documentary" to push his own agenda. I don't give him much credence, beyond listening to the people he interviewed (some of whom were interesting.) But when someone like Jeffery claims that the movie is full of lies, then lists a bunch of things that aren't lies, it makes it look like Jeffrey has a similar agenda, which I found sort of amusing. Similar to someone who criticizes someone else's spelling but can't spell the words in his criticism correctly.

[kallend 2,148]

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Is this a semantics issue? There is a Titan IV used by the military but it is not supposed to be used for nukes.
www.air-and-space.com/19961220%20Titan%20IV.htm

But who knows what might be on an "undisclosed military payload"?

We already have several perfectly suitable launch platforms for nukes. I can't think of any reason to use a Titan IV instead. It isn't a WMD.

I dunno. I bet a loaded Titan IV landing on a village would destroy a lot more people than the shell they found in Iraq a few days ago.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Gawain 0]

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I dunno. I bet a loaded Titan IV landing on a village would destroy a lot more people than the shell they found in Iraq a few days ago.

I'll take that bet. Assuming proper weather, proper trajectory, and airburst, how many people can 4 liters of sarin kill?

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[skydyvr 0]

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I dunno. I bet a loaded Titan IV landing on a village would destroy a lot more people than the shell they found in Iraq a few days ago.

I'll take that bet. Assuming proper weather, proper tragjctory, and airburst, how many people can 4 liters of sarin kill?

If distributed as efficiently as scientifically possible, the number is in the millions.

. . =(_8^(1)

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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>- The Lockheed plant in Columbine did not make "WMD"

The missile behind them during the interview was a Titan missile; these are still in service as ICBM's. Nowadays they are used primarily as launchers for satellites.

Does that mean that particular missile was made / was being made at that facility in Littleton?

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>Charlton Heston and the NRA did NOT traipse into town and merrily
>celebrate guns just days after the massacre at Columbine.

The NRA had a meeting in Denver shortly after the Columbine shooting. In their defense it had been planned before the shooting. A quote from Heston's speech at that meeting on May 4th, 1999:

"I have a message from the mayor, Mr. Wellington Webb, the mayor of Denver. He sent me this and said don't come here, we don't want you here. . . .

Don't come here? We're already here. This community is our home. Every community in America is our home. We are a 128-year-old fixture of mainstream America. The Second Amendment ethic of lawful, responsible firearm ownership spans the broadest cross section of American life imaginable. So, we have the same right as all other citizens to be here."

The Columbine shooting was April 20, 1999.

Bill, this is exactly the fucking bullshit I'm talking about. On a Moore-debunking website I visited recently, they put side-by-side the text of the speech as Moore presented it, and the text of the actual speech. What you reproduced here IS THE EXACT BOGUS FUCKING [I]SPLICE[/I] that proves Moore manipulated things to produce flawed conclusions and impressions in his audience.

By the way, the meetings the NRA so callously held in Denver had been planned several years in advance; were supposed to host over 20,000 people; were mandated by New York state law to be held (the state in which the organization's charter was effected). The NRA CANCELED ALL aspects of what would have been an upbeat festival-type convention and instead held ONLY those parts of the meeting that were required by law. Moore, of course, mentions NONE of that. Instead, he shows clips of Mr. Heston holding a musket that was given to him as a gift and proclaiming, "From my cold, dead hands!" and clearly lets it be implied that this was the speech he gave in Denver right after the massacre, when in fact it was in a speech given in North Carolina nearly a year later.

Type "Michael Moore gun lie" in Google and you can read the rest of what makes it very clear that Moore is an unscrupulous lying sack of shit with a bent agenda and a fake "documentary" to promulgate it.

Besides, "callous" or not, what parts of what Heston said in that "quotation" do you disagree with? Perhaps the part that says the NRA has every right to assemble wherever in our free country it wants?

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>- You CANNOT just walk into that bank, open a CD, and walk out with a shiny new rifle!


------------------------------------------
Chicago Sun-Times
January 28, 2001

Open a bank account, get a gun.

North Country Financial Corp. is exchanging firearms for deposits, giving away rifles and shotguns in lieu of the interest that normally accompanies accounts.

Put as little as $ 869 in a 20-year certificate of deposit, and the Traverse City-based bank will hand over a Weatherby Inc. Mark V Synthetic rifle that lists for $ 779. Deposit more, and you have a choice of six Weatherby shotguns or a limited-edition rifle.

The bank has 28 branches, mostly in Michigan's Upper Peninsula, and the guns-for-CDs program is a potent weapon in the fight for Americans' savings at a time of shrinking bank deposits.

--------------------------------------------

Not even sure what the big deal is about that one. So what if they give away free guns to qualified customers, assuming they comply with all the other laws concerning selling guns?

EXACTLY. Moore implied, first of all, that the bank hands over the actual rifle to the customer right there in the bank, ASKS, "Isn't it dangerous to give people rifles in a bank?" and then NEVER FESSES UP THE TRUTH THAT CUSTOMERS DO NOT GET HANDED RIFLES RIGHT THERE IN THE BANK, BUT INSTEAD HAVE TO PICK THEM UP THROUGH A LICENSED FFL DEALER IN ANOTHER LOCATION, AFTER ALL APPLICABLE LAWS HAVE BEEN COMPLIED WITH. So why would Moore ask a question about the safety of a bank giving a rifle to a customer right there in the bank when he HAD to know that they DON'T do that -- and that the presentation of the rifle to HIM was a STAGED EVENT?!

Moore seems to want to imply that the gun giveaway policy is somehow a negative thing. Why would that be, when the bank will only give the guns to those who would pass all required background checks at a gun shop, per the law? The customers who do this deal have to go to an actual place where guns are sold to pick up their choice. It's not an over-the-counter transaction that happens in a fucking bank, although that is EXACTLY what impression Moore endeavors to create when he walks out the door of the bank after talking with the bank employees, holding "his" new rifle.

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[craichead 0]

I think that this is the site that you're looking at (or something similar):

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

It has some valid points. I imagine that you haven't even looked at Michael Moore's page (I'm still wondering if you've even seen the film) where he responds to those claims, just because you think that he's "sick" and full of shite.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/wackoattacko/

I think Moore does a satisfactory job of explaining himself. Everything he says I take with several grains of salt, but I'll give him credit for making an effort to clarify. But I suppose that once you've made up your mind because somebody else told you what to believe on another web site...there's no going back.

_Pm

__
"Scared of love, love and aeroplanes...falling out, I said takes no brains." -- Andy Partridge (XTC)

[billvon 3,116]

>Does that mean that particular missile was made / was being made
>at that facility in Littleton?

You mean you think they built an identical missile somewhere else and trucked it in? It was a display model showing what they make there.

>Bill, this is exactly the fucking bullshit I'm talking about.

Facts annoy you?

>Besides, "callous" or not, what parts of what Heston said in
>that "quotation" do you disagree with? Perhaps the part that says the
> NRA has every right to assemble wherever in our free country it wants?

Nothing. I agree with what he said. It was perhaps a poor time to say it, but this is the US, and you have the right to say whatever you want.

>Moore implied, first of all, that the bank hands over the actual
>rifle to the customer right there in the bank . . .

The ad says they do exactly that. If you open an account, "the Traverse City-based bank will hand over a Weatherby Inc. Mark V Synthetic rifle that lists for $ 779." Perhaps they were lying in their ad, in which case I would expect an interviewer to ask them about it.

[Shotgun 1]

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Type "Michael Moore gun lie" in Google

Ok, I did that... It gives me mostly websites run by people who support guns and who have an obvious agenda against Michael Moore. Why should I give them any more credibility than I give Moore? Again, can you point us to the site that you are getting your "credible" information from?

(And in case you're wondering, I am not an anti-gun person. I tend to lean towards Libertarian views on the subject.)

[kelpdiver 2]

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>Does that mean that particular missile was made / was being made
>at that facility in Littleton?

You mean you think they built an identical missile somewhere else and trucked it in? It was a display model showing what they make there.

>Bill, this is exactly the fucking bullshit I'm talking about.

Facts annoy you?

Bill, we've already covered that the Titan IVis is not used for warheads, and the Titan II ICBM platform was taken offline in 1987. They do use the old missles to launch satelllites now. So let's stick to facts.

It's potential for death isn't much greater than a fully loaded 747.

[kallend 2,148]

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I dunno. I bet a loaded Titan IV landing on a village would destroy a lot more people than the shell they found in Iraq a few days ago.

I'll take that bet. Assuming proper weather, proper tragjctory, and airburst, how many people can 4 liters of sarin kill?

If distributed as efficiently as scientifically possible, the number is in the millions.

The question related to the old shell found in Iraq, not 4 liters of Sarin distributed as efficiently as scientifically possible.

Do you have any clue how toxic hydrazine, unsymmetrical dimethyl hydrazine, and nitrogen tetroxide are. The Titan IV contains tons of these.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[craichead 0]

I think you missed the point. Bill already knows that the missiles are primarily used to launch satellites these days. That still doesn't negate the fact that those rockets are still produced at the facility in Littleton, which is what Jeffrey is trying to deny. As far as I can see, Bill has been sticking to the facts.

_Pm

__
"Scared of love, love and aeroplanes...falling out, I said takes no brains." -- Andy Partridge (XTC)