Columbine Shooter's Parents Speak

[DrunkMonkey 0]

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I read his post too...
I can empathize with every word.
edited to add: he's not the one who needs counselling. Those freaks who tormented him do.

It just concerns me that he's been out of school for how long (apparently at least 4 years) and is still quite bitter about it. That sort of negative energy is never good...

I am over it, it just hurts me to see other children going thru what I know first hand to be excruciating... Empathy... Like a family of someone murdered long ago can empathize with the family of someone newly murdered...

The upside: I know at least three of the HS bullies are now doing hard time in prison. Hope they are having a miserable time, are being dehumanized on a daily basis, and never see freedom or the light of day again... As Lawrence Fishburne said in The Matrix: "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony..."

[jkm2500 0]

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Interesting piece of research published in the latest journal of the National Academy of Science.

They followed brain development from age 4 through 21 in a bunch of kids, using MRI, etc.

The areas of the brain responsible for self-restraint, judgement, and suchlike are the last to develop, in the late teens and early twenties.

Of course, any parent could tell you that, but it's nice to have scientific confirmation.

Kallend,

I can agree that scientifically there have been studies that show that these areas of the brain mature later on in life. But I have a question for you, why don't all children lie, cheat , and steal? It is because of morals that have been taught to them since day one. They believe in consequences either good or bad for the action that they are about to take part in.

Now that being said, I would hold the parents responsible if the child that took part in the act did not know wrong from right. However, these kids knew what they were doing was wrong, therefore the parents did their social duty in teaching their children the the difference between right and wrong. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold knew that there would be consequences for their actions, hence the suicide. Therefore, they knew what they were doing is wrong, they made the decision to do it, and then instead of facing the consequences of the action they killed themselves. That doesn't sound to me like they didn't know what they were doing. It sounds like they were in complete control of all their faculties. Don't you agree?

The primary purpose of the Armed Forces is to prepare for and to prevail in combat should the need arise.

[Nightingale 0]

now you're getting into nature vs. nurture.

how do you explain a family with six kids, five upstanding citizens, and the sixth in jail for murder? same parents, same environment.

[DrunkMonkey 0]

An interesting read: Clicky!

[jkm2500 0]

Like I said in my earlier post, it is a situation of the children rejecting the values that the parents have taught them.

Another answer is: The chidren felt it was more beneficial to do the act and suffer the consequences than to continue with whatever humiliation/abuse is going on.

It is the same reason that abused women kill their abusers, and abused kids kill their abusers. They arent willing to suffer the humiliation/abuse one more time....

The primary purpose of the Armed Forces is to prepare for and to prevail in combat should the need arise.

[kelpdiver 2]

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It is the same reason that abused women kill their abusers, and abused kids kill their abusers. They arent willing to suffer the humiliation/abuse one more time....

Let's not give these two too much credit - they didn't seem to be seeking out the abusers. If their bomb had worked, they would have killed dozens of randomly selected people in the cafeteria.

Or asking girls if they believe in god before shooting them...

[JohnRich 4]

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They say it's not their fault and have no need to be forgiven.

Of course not. Everyone knows it's the fault of the gun manufacturers.

[sarcasm off]

[Jib 0]

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I can agree that scientifically there have been studies that show that these areas of the brain mature later on in life. But I have a question for you, why don't all children lie, cheat , and steal? It is because of morals that have been taught to them since day one. They believe in consequences either good or bad for the action that they are about to take part in.

I have no idea about Columbine, but elsewhere, schools fail to safeguard smart kids, dorks, geeks, spazzes, losers, etc. and instead approve only success in athletics... what's cool. They demand conformity and the ones that abide by it lose.

Kallend, why do people do the same things with fully developed brains?

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the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[jkm2500 0]

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Let's not give these two too much credit - they didn't seem to be seeking out the abusers. If their bomb had worked, they would have killed dozens of randomly selected people in the cafeteria.

Or asking girls if they believe in god before shooting them...

You are correct, but my example was one that was on the far outside. These two kids that did this horrific event, were trying to make the same statement....."I will not take it anymore!" That was the motivation, thus the comparison. I didn't mean for people to think that I was comparing the two different circumstances directly....just by motivation.

I think that them asking if they believe in God before shooting them was just a way of rationalizing the power that they had attained through their siege. They didn't know how to deal with the sudden rush of emotions from being the outcasts to being the ones that held power. By saying "do you believe in God?" it was also another way of exerting power over their victims. Just throwing that out there.

The primary purpose of the Armed Forces is to prepare for and to prevail in combat should the need arise.

[billvon 3,116]

>but elsewhere, schools fail to safeguard smart kids, dorks, geeks,
> spazzes, losers, etc. and instead approve only success in athletics...
> what's cool. They demand conformity and the ones that abide by it
> lose.

??? And this is different from the real world how?

No one gets special protection (which is another way of saying everyone gets the same protection.) If the school does not enforce its own rules, then that's a problem and should be fixed. If a school does not protect nerds from abuse? That's been going on since there were schools, just as the same general pattern (the nerds succeed in the world and the jocks and bullies end up as overweight beer-guzzling losers living in trailers) has been going on since the beginning of US history.

[Jib 0]

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??? And this is different from the real world how?... (the nerds succeed in the world and the jocks and bullies end up as overweight beer-guzzling losers living in trailers) has been going on since the beginning of US history.

The difference is there's little the nerds can do at the time to avoid or change it. No cash. No way to get it. They have to rely on the school.

Hazing is/was a fraternal tradition and college jock dorms, cars, cash, etc... Does that make it right?

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the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[jkm2500 0]

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??? And this is different from the real world how?

No one gets special protection (which is another way of saying everyone gets the same protection.) If the school does not enforce its own rules, then that's a problem and should be fixed. If a school does not protect nerds from abuse? That's been going on since there were schools, just as the same general pattern (the nerds succeed in the world and the jocks and bullies end up as overweight beer-guzzling losers living in trailers) has been going on since the beginning of US history

I agree with Bill on this one. It amazes me that people expect to be safeguarded. There are way too many people who believe that. Which is why in the world today we have little league games that don't keep score, and less and less activities in the high schools. People want way too much equality, but the world is made up equally. We need to teach our children that winning isn't everything(it is great motivation), and that losing isn't that bad. They will be more successful in life with these ideas firmly embedded in their brain. Kids also need to learn that being a Jock doesn't make them cool, and being an intellectual doesn't make you a dork. Just accept yourself....

The primary purpose of the Armed Forces is to prepare for and to prevail in combat should the need arise.

[freeflygoddess 0]

Geez, everyone wants to blame someone else for everything. I don't blame those parents at all. I know what it was like when I was a teenager, I take full responsablity for my actions, and everyone else should to. Yeah kids are abused by parents and sure that can create some issues, but ultamily who is really at fault, the kid, it is their choice to do wrong. In this case, who pointed that gun and killed those kids and themselves, they did, not the parents. The only way the parents would have any blame in this would be if they bought the guns for the kids, told them what to do and how to do it and when. That did not happen at all. Sure they might have "missed clues" but geez what do expect when you are raising children you have to give them space and let them learn from their mistakes, you can't watch them 24/7 and expect them to behave 24/7. There is no one in this world who is 100% perfect and never done anything wrong.

[billvon 3,116]

>The difference is there's little the nerds can do at the time to avoid
> or change it. No cash. No way to get it.

??? I had my first job at age 14; by 20 I was making $100 an hour consulting. That's the advantage of being a nerd. And now I make a lot more than the jocks, the druggies (even the ones with influential parents) and the cool guys. Revenge is sweet.

>Hazing is/was a fraternal tradition and college jock dorms, cars, cash,
>etc... Does that make it right?

Hazing - nothing wrong with it as long as it doesn't break any school rules. Make the new guy pack parachutes/clean the dorm/sing a silly song? No problem. Make him drink a fifth of Jack Daniels, or steal a car? Big problem.

The solution - enforce school rules. Trying to enforce "be nice to the poor nerds" is an exercise in futility.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Hiding stuff from your parents isn't hard, concealing emotions from them isn't hard - both these kids went bowling on the day of the shooting, that says a lot to me about the mental significance they placed on this event.

All of the other points aside (and I agree with many/most of them), they did not go bowling that day.

There are many many websites now exposing the lies, deceptions and inaccuracies contained in Michael Moore's farcical "documentary" Bowling for Columbine, and one of the first points some of them make is that even the title is wrong. The two murderers skipped their bowling class that morning.

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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It was really clear in Bowling For Columbine

Nothing from Bowling for Columbine should be taken at face value. That fraud is full of lies and inaccuracies -- very documentable, very provablly false.

If you got an "impression" about the parents -- or anything else in that movie (like how easy it is to walk out of a bank with a new rifle) -- DOUBT IT. Michael Moore was happy to twist perceptions (for instance, by splicing together unconnected sentences from a speech into a paragraph) in order to give an unfounded "impression" to the viewer. Just about everything in that movie departed from its true reality in order to conform to the impression Moore wanted to CREATE. He did not attempt to reflect reality, he sought to change it to suit his whimsy and his agenda.

The guy is sick.

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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now you're getting into nature vs. nurture.

how do you explain a family with six kids, five upstanding citizens, and the sixth in jail for murder? same parents, same environment.

Ohhh, hardly the same environment, necessarily, and far too many factors in the growing-up of those different kids to account for.

For one thing, first, middle and end kids have different demands placed on them, and make different demands of those around them. My parents were stricter with my older siblings -- I am the youngest of four -- than they were with me. By the time I came up, and got my driver's license, I was allowed to drive from L.I. to Boston for the weekend -- with my license only one month old. My sibs would not have been allowed to do that: I was allowed to, because my sibs had already proven to my parents that it was likely to work out fine.

No, one cannot expect all the kids in a household to develop in similar ways just because they sleep in the same house and eat the same dinner. There are millions of different factors that affect the mental development of each individual kid.

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[Newbie 0]

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Hiding stuff from your parents isn't hard, concealing emotions from them isn't hard - both these kids went bowling on the day of the shooting, that says a lot to me about the mental significance they placed on this event.

All of the other points aside (and I agree with many/most of them), they did not go bowling that day.

There are many many websites now exposing the lies, deceptions and inaccuracies contained in Michael Moore's farcical "documentary" Bowling for Columbine, and one of the first points some of them make is that even the title is wrong. The two murderers skipped their bowling class that morning.

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you're absolutely right, after i read what Kennedy had said, i went and checked and did some research and you're right, they skipped bowling class on the day of the shooting.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[Newbie 0]

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They say it's not their fault and have no need to be forgiven.

Of course not. Everyone knows it's the fault of the gun manufacturers.

[sarcasm off]

i don't think it's the manufacturers fault. But if you ask me, being able to legally buy weapons like what they did at 17 is nuts.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[Shotgun 1]

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All of the other points aside (and I agree with many/most of them), they did not go bowling that day.

Just curious... What makes you so sure that they did not go bowling that day? (Were you there?) I have done some checking on this too, and it leaves me feeling that there's a 50/50 chance that they were in bowling class that morning. Yes, there are a lot of websites that claim they were not there, but there are just as many that say they were there (including some major news sites like ABC, CBS, and FoxNews - not that those are necessarily any more reliable than the other sites).

Now, I definitely thought Moore's "documentary" was skewed toward his own personal agenda, but I also haven't seen any hard facts (from a reliable source) that would convince me that he was wrong about them being in bowling class that morning.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but if you know of some more reliable information than what I have been finding then I would be curious to see it...

[kallend 2,148]

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Kallend, why do people do the same things with fully developed brains?

One might argue that adults who do the same things do NOT have fully developed brains.

Our society won't allow teenagers to drink alcohol or vote until they're 18, and imposes restrictions on driving etc.

Teenagers have far better reactions and coordination than, say, 40 year olds but teenage drivers have accidents at far higher rates.

Don't you think immature capability of judgment plays a role here?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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[craichead 0]

Um, yeah...had you read my post and Andy's response, you would have seen nearly 30 posts ago that Andy established that he was mistaken and thinking of another investigative piece on the Columbine shootings.

So any guy who tells a story in an entertaining, attention-getting way to suit his whimsy and agenda is "sick"? Sheesh, we all must be sick, then. I think it's obvious that Michael Moore is in the entertainment business writing books and making films; whether they're classified as "documentary" or not is arbitrary.

_Pm

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"Scared of love, love and aeroplanes...falling out, I said takes no brains." -- Andy Partridge (XTC)

[RoadRash 0]

Ok, here is my $0.02...

When it comes to knowing the mental status of one's children, that is difficult to tell, especially when you are not being all that attentive. In reference to the television program that Andyman and craichead mentioned, I saw it as well, and believe that from that show, the parents didn't seem all that interested in what their son was up to nor had any idea how screwed up in the head he was until it was too late.

I agree with others who posted that teens get away with certain actions when they were that age and I admit to getting away with certain things as well, but my parents knew more than I would probably like to admit.

I know that I wouldn't want to claim any form of responsibility if my son or daughter shot and killed their fellow students. This stuck with me from the article though:

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They acknowledged they missed signs that their son was in trouble.

So as far as I'm concerned, the signs were there to be seen, they admit it. It was their lack of action that might...(and I stress might) have prevented a massacre...But we will never know, and that is a fact.

~R+R

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Fly the friendly skies...^_^...})ii({...^_~...

[WFFC 1]

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So as far as I'm concerned, the signs were there to be seen, they admit it. It was their lack of action that might...(and I stress might) have prevented a massacre...But we will never know, and that is a fact.

~R+R

Another piece that gets brought up (and dropped) is the bullying. I used to live near the H.S. The 'Trenchcoat Mafia' was created by the 'social outcasts' to combat the issue on their own level. Not to do the deed they did, but to have their own group to belong to.

The following had the signs and did nothing:
Parents (Klebold & Harris)
Jeffco Police
School (teachers and administrator)
Other Parents - (the ones who instilled the bullying skills in their kids)

There is only so far that anyone is going to be pushed (adult or child) before they're going to snap. The warning signs are generally always there, but nothing happens until someone actually takes action.

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~~~Michael

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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All of the other points aside (and I agree with many/most of them), they did not go bowling that day.

Just curious... What makes you so sure that they did not go bowling that day? (Were you there?) I have done some checking on this too, and it leaves me feeling that there's a 50/50 chance that they were in bowling class that morning. Yes, there are a lot of websites that claim they were not there, but there are just as many that say they were there (including some major news sites like ABC, CBS, and FoxNews - not that those are necessarily any more reliable than the other sites).

So you cite for me some of the same "news" sources (excluding Fox, I guess) that show video clips of people firing FULL AUTO rifles when talking about efforts to renew the "assault weapons ban" and ask me to treat the claims as credible?

Absent the ability to actually view class records for that day, I take it as reliable that I have read numerous claims that state they were absent from class that day.

Okay, so let's split hairs: assume that the killers did go to bowling class.

That does not change the fact that Moore filled his movie with lies.
- The Lockheed plant in Columbine did not make "WMD"
- You CANNOT just walk into that bank, open a CD, and walk out with a shiny new rifle!
- Charlton Heston and the NRA did NOT traipse into town and merrily celebrate guns just days after the massacre at Columbine.
- Many "quotes" by Heston featured in the movie were pasted together; some "sentences" were constructed from parts of sentences separated by entire paragraphs.
- In some cases, editing techniques strongly imply that two separate sentences were made in the same speech, when in fact Heston is shown wearing one suit, the scene is spliced, and Heston is then wearing a different suit. The effect is still that one sentence followed the other in a single speech.

I don't have any "hard facts" to "prove" the killers were not at bowling class that morning; but the statements that they were not came from the same web sources that debunked the above portrayals and many others, i.e. they ride on a wave of established credibility and veracity.

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"