Bomb containing deadly sarin explodes in Iraq

[Ron 10]

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Are you claiming that Pakistan, Afghanistan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Iran do not have chemical weapons?

Nope...But you claim that Iraq didn't.

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Kimmitt said the shell belonged to a class of ordnance that Saddam's government said was destroyed before the 1991 Gulf war (search). Experts believe both the sarin and mustard gas weapons date back to that time.

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"Everybody knew Saddam had chemical weapons, the question was, where did they go. Unfortunately, everybody jumped on the offramp and said 'well, because we didn't find them, he didn't have them,'" said Fox News military analyst Lt. Gen. Tom McInerney.......

"I doubt if it's the tip of the iceberg but it does confirm what we've known ... that he [Saddam] had weapons of mass destruction that he used on his own people," Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, told Fox News. "This does show that the fear we had is very real. Now whether there is much more of this we don't know, Iraq is the size of the state of California."

Iraqi Scientist: You Will Find More

Gazi George, a former Iraqi nuclear scientist under Saddam's regime, told Fox News he believes many similar weapons stockpiled by the former regime were either buried underground or transported to Syria. He noted that the airport where the device was detonated is on the way to Baghdad from the Syrian border.

George said the finding likely will be the first in a series of discoveries of such weapons.

"Saddam is the type who will not store those materials in a military warehouse. He's gonna store them either underground, or, as I said, lots of them have gone west to Syria and are being brought back with the insurgencies," George told Fox News. "It is difficult to look in areas that are not obvious to the military's eyes.

"I'm sure they're going to find more once time passes," he continued, saying one year is not enough for the survey group or the military to find the weapons.

Saddam, when he was in power, had declared that he did in fact possess mustard-gas filled artilleries but none that included sarin.

"I think what we found today, the sarin in some ways, although it's a nerve gas, it's a lucky situation sarin detonated in the way it did ... it's not as dangerous as the cocktails Saddam used to make, mixing blister" agents with other gases and substances, George said.

We knew he had them, His people said he had them...HE said he had them.

But since we coulnd not find them right away you claim he didn't have them?

He hid them. Thats what I would have done.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kiltboy 0]

Its possible that there were a couple of shells unaccounted for because of poor admin.
Those unaccounted for shells could be mixed with standard munitions.
They were then looted along with the conventional rounds and used as a standard explosive in this event.
This is not evidence of a credible currently functioning (until last year) program. More likely its a left over from the Iran/Iraq war that was unaccounted for IMHO.

David

[Gawain 0]

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Are you claiming that Pakistan, Afghanistan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Iran do not have chemical weapons?

Pakistan, maybe. They are a signatory to the CWC. In 1992 it issued a declaration (with India) that neither had or intended to make Chemical Weapons. The conjecture is sourced from Indian intelligence, so I don't know.

Afghanistan, no.
Syria, yes.
Saudi Arabia, no.
Jordan, no.
Iran, yes, despite being a signatory to the CWC.

I'll add a couple to your list:
India, maybe.
Israel, no.

www.fas.org has detailed summaries and historical information that make for great reading.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[happythoughts 0]

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He hid them. Thats what I would have done.

And that is why we are never going to give you your own country, we don't need dishonest politicians. If you can't trust a dictator, who can you trust?

Considering the age of the shell, it may be just an item looted.

The question becomes, how many of these exist in looted stockpiles? Even if they are small, it may be an impossible task to determine how many of these hidden caches exist?

If there is 40 shells in a cache, but it turns out there are 50 hiding spots, that is 2,000.

[kallend 2,150]

All the speculation is pointless at this stage.

Thanks to Bush's war, Al Qaeda now has a strong foothold in Iraq. Al Qaeda is an international organization that has obtained arms from all over the world.

The stuff could have come from any of a number of places, including the former USSR, the USA, Korea, Iraq, etc.

As I mentioned before the USA, despite a most sophisticated inventory system, has misplaced tons of weapons grade plutonium (Source, US DoE). What makes anyone think any of these other places take better care of their nasty stuff than we do?

This is a year too late to be a smoking gun.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Depends whose military they stole them from. Maybe they have "Made in USA" stamped on the bottom.

Jeez, the USA has misplaced (aka lost) some 4 tons of weapons grade plutonium. What's a nerve gas shell or two?

I tell you what, why don't we go ahead and believe that they were placed here by Martians until we prove they were not?

Geez, Kallend, I'm surprised you haven't suggested that since no American was killed by the sarin bomb, it must be a conspiracy by the U.S. to fake an enemy attack to justify the war against Iraq; and the reason we didn't do it months and months ago is that it served George W. Bush's reelection campaign to do it closer to the election. Yeah, that's the ticket. It was a U.S. conspiracy, done without U.S. casualties, to "plant" chemical weapons in Iraqi possession. Now, kallend, you have another whacko theory to believe until disproof comes along.

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[Gawain 0]

It would be helpful if you could at least point in the direction of DoE's web-site where someone could read about that themselves.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Michele 1]

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I'm surprised you haven't suggested that since no American was killed by the sarin bomb, it must be a conspiracy by the U.S. to fake an enemy attack to justify the war against Iraq; and the reason we didn't do it months and months ago is that it served George W. Bush's reelection campaign to do it closer to the election. Yeah, that's the ticket. It was a U.S. conspiracy, done without U.S. casualties, to "plant" chemical weapons in Iraqi possession.

ROFL!

Let about 24 hours get by, and you'll undoubtedly have that exact theory running amok. Sigh.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[rhino 0]

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I'm sure the CIA planted it to help Bush win the election.

I suppose you think the CIA launched it at our personal and civilians as well?

[chuckbrown 0]

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As I mentioned before the USA, despite a most sophisticated inventory system, has misplaced tons of weapons grade plutonium (Source, US DoE).

I would be interested in a specific citation supporting this conclusion. DOE acknowledges that 2 GRAMS of weapons grade plutonium is missing from Los Alamos Lab, but DOE doesn't acknowledge "misplacing tons" of WGP. DOE has stated that different methods of calculating WGP production have resulted in production figures which differ by several tons. This does not mean that several tons of WGP are missing. It means that DOE miscalculated how much WGP was actually produced. DOE specifically denies that "tons" of WGP are missing. http://www.osti.gov/html/osti/opennet/document/press/pc11.html

Edited cuz I'm a tard.

[rhino 0]

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But remember there were no WMD's in Iraq....At least SH said there were none....I guess you can get these things at K-Mart right?

More is coming... I still think the motherload will be found...

[pajarito 0]

I swear I was thinking about this before I read your post. I was going to start the whole space aliens put the WMD bomb there just to make it appear that there were WMD in country when there really are not. That the space aliens (ok...Martians) are in good with GWB and the Republicans (because they're of a higher order in intelligence, of course) and that it was all part of the "vast right-wing conspiracy" theory to get GWB re-elected. Because it couldn’t be WMD. We’ve already established that there were none. I mean, it’s already been on all the talk shows and CNN. Seriously folks. Even if you're liberal and hate GWB. You're American. How about a "way to go guys" for our troops and our country. Even if it's a small find, it's still a check mark in the win category for us. How about being on your country's side, by default, for a change instead of being the first to criticize and downplay.

[turtlespeed 226]

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What's your point Bill?

You mean they steal them from the military that doesn't have any?

They were all destroyed - right?

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Depends whose military they stole them from. Maybe they have "Made in USA" stamped on the bottom.

Jeez, the USA has misplaced (aka lost) some 4 tons of weapons grade plutonium. What's a nerve gas shell or two?

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What back up do you have of this?

What evidence do you have that this CW was owned by and/or known to the Iraqi regime?

Well, I never said I did - You gave a specific figure - back it up.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[wmw999 2,589]

Good point.

Especially the part about the Martians being in the VRWC

That said, I think that the contention from the left is that there aren't vast stockpiles worth going to war over (killing thousands of people over a very small stockpile still sounds like using an awfully big gun on a squirrel).

That said, yes, I'm supremely glad that we have a lot of well-trained people there who knew just what to do, and that they executed. I really mean that.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Gawain 0]

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That said, I think that the contention from the left is that there aren't vast stockpiles worth going to war over (killing thousands of people over a very small stockpile still sounds like using an awfully big gun on a squirrel).

As little as 5mg of sarin can kill you. An air blast of a single 155mm projectile can kill thousands (given proper conditions and target). If we find and contain 20 more, that will reduce risk to tens-of-thousands. A stockpile is relative to the type of weapon.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Newbie 0]

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Interesting! So we could find no WMD's in Iraq after we invaded, but a year later, people are managing to buy, steal and/or produce the stuff! Sounds like Saddam was more effective than the US in halting production of WMD's.

Or SH could hide it really good...It was his back yard.

Funny though that its a WMD in a country that didn't have any.

according to this report:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3722255.stm

it doesn't qualify for a WMD - it's from decades ago.

From the link:


"However, a senior coalition source has told the BBC the round does not signal the discovery of weapons of mass destruction or the escalation of insurgent activity.

He said the round dated back to the Iran-Iraq war and coalition officials were not sure whether the fighters even knew what it contained"

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[Kennedy 0]

How did I know somebody was going to come out and say "but, but, this doesn't really count as WMDs, so Bush is still the anti-Christ..."


edit: where in that article does the BBC claim is doesn't qualify as a WMD?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[billvon 3,120]

>He said the round dated back to the Iran-Iraq war and coalition
> officials were not sure whether the fighters even knew what it contained.

And which means there's a good chance that we sold them the ingredients for it.

[DrunkMonkey 0]

"Deadly" Sarin? As opposed to "obnoxious" Sarin?

[Casurf1978 0]

Most likely it is missplaced from the Iran-Iraq war. It's also only 1 shell, one shell. Wonder how many times our military missplaces shells, and other types of weapons. Wasnt the Anthrax that was sent to Daschel from our own stock? And wasnt it till USAMRID or the CDC did DNA tests and was like "Oh this is our own stock." I mean one shell that pre dates the 1991 war. One shell. Thats like me finding a spec of gold in a river and screaming "gold rush."

[kelpdiver 2]

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I would be interested in a specific citation supporting this conclusion. DOE acknowledges that 2 GRAMS of weapons grade plutonium is missing from Los Alamos Lab, but DOE doesn't acknowledge "misplacing tons" of WGP. DOE has stated that different methods of calculating WGP production have resulted in production figures which differ by several tons. This does not mean that several tons of WGP are missing. It means that DOE miscalculated how much WGP was actually produced. DOE specifically denies that "tons" of WGP are missing. http://www.osti.gov/html/osti/opennet/document/press/pc11.html

There has long been suspicion that Israel got a chunk of the MUF, but they had their own sources with France and South Africa. And I recall reading that the floor absorbs some amount that is hard to quantitize.

Unfortunately, a report from the DOE is not exactly the most convincing source. If we did divert material to the Israelis we're not going to leave a paper trail for it. I know they can't track to single grams what happened with material for tens of thousands of warheads.

A single sarin shell isn't really a smoking gun. We lost a mini sub last week and had to wait for some Norwegions to stumble upon it. Certainly the troops have to be concerned that there is in fact a stockpile of them.

[nathaniel 0]

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Not misplaced. Undoubtedly looted. Everything that wasn't nailed down, and some stuff that was. Somebody has a private stash of stuff. I doubt there's that much, but there is enough to create problems for a while.

What counts for disposal in the 3rd world (burial) probably would not count in the US. Having enough dollars for quarantine, decontamination, and disassembly facilities is a luxury most parts of the world don't have. Probably the biggest reason the US has diminshed its stockpiles is that simply keeping the things isn't simple with all the care and maintenance they require. Not to mention the chemical half-lives of the reagents being rather short IIRC on the order of a few years.

nathaniel

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[kallend 2,150]

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It would be helpful if you could at least point in the direction of DoE's web-site where someone could read about that themselves.

I found it using Google. So can you. It's not exactly a secret.

They blame it on inventory control. This in the country and the organization with the most sophisticated inventory control that exists anywhere.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,150]

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As I mentioned before the USA, despite a most sophisticated inventory system, has misplaced tons of weapons grade plutonium (Source, US DoE).

I would be interested in a specific citation supporting this conclusion. DOE acknowledges that 2 GRAMS of weapons grade plutonium is missing from Los Alamos Lab, but DOE doesn't acknowledge "misplacing tons" of WGP. DOE has stated that different methods of calculating WGP production have resulted in production figures which differ by several tons. This does not mean that several tons of WGP are missing. It means that DOE miscalculated how much WGP was actually produced. DOE specifically denies that "tons" of WGP are missing. http://www.osti.gov/html/osti/opennet/document/press/pc11.html

Edited cuz I'm a tard.

It makes the point either way.

Either they lost it despite the most stringent security precautions, or they lost track of it despite the most sophistocated inventory control.

If DOE can't account for its Pu under the best of circumstances, how does anyone expect a 3rd world nation to account for much of anything after having its military destroyed in 1991 and bombed routinely for the next 12 years?.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,150]

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I would be interested in a specific citation supporting this conclusion. DOE acknowledges that 2 GRAMS of weapons grade plutonium is missing from Los Alamos Lab, but DOE doesn't acknowledge "misplacing tons" of WGP. DOE has stated that different methods of calculating WGP production have resulted in production figures which differ by several tons. This does not mean that several tons of WGP are missing. It means that DOE miscalculated how much WGP was actually produced. DOE specifically denies that "tons" of WGP are missing. http://www.osti.gov/html/osti/opennet/document/press/pc11.html

There has long been suspicion that Israel got a chunk of the MUF, but they had their own sources with France and South Africa. And I recall reading that the floor absorbs some amount that is hard to quantitize.

Unfortunately, a report from the DOE is not exactly the most convincing source. If we did divert material to the Israelis we're not going to leave a paper trail for it. I know they can't track to single grams what happened with material for tens of thousands of warheads.

A single sarin shell isn't really a smoking gun. We lost a mini sub last week and had to wait for some Norwegions to stumble upon it. Certainly the troops have to be concerned that there is in fact a stockpile of them.

DOE was giving the stuff away like candy in the '50s. We had 28g in our physics dept. basement for years. When I became chairman of our Radiation Safety Committee and learned of its existence we contacted Los Alamos and asked kindly if they wanted it back. They said they'd take it if we paid them a $10,000 disposal fee so we declined.

Eventually when Washington wised up to the terrorist threat, they said they'd really like it back pretty please, and as long as we paid for the truck they wouldn't charge us anything.

So based on direct personal experience I am not at all impressed by the way the US looked after the stuff.

We also had a load of nerve gas (not sure which one) in the Bio department for years in the '80s because one of the Profs was doing research wfor the Army on antidotes. Again, security was essentially non existent.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.