quade 4 #1 May 16, 2004 THE GRAY ZONE by SEYMOUR M. HERSH How a secret Pentagon program came to Abu Ghraib. CNN article about the Hersh article.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #2 May 16, 2004 QuoteTHE GRAY ZONE by SEYMOUR M. HERSH How a secret Pentagon program came to Abu Ghraib. CNN article about the Hersh article. IIRC it was Hersch who uncovered the truth about the My Lai massacre after the Pentagon had attempted to cover it up.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #3 May 16, 2004 QuoteQuoteTHE GRAY ZONE by SEYMOUR M. HERSH How a secret Pentagon program came to Abu Ghraib. CNN article about the Hersh article. IIRC it was Hersch who uncovered the truth about the My Lai massacre after the Pentagon had attempted to cover it up. Wasn't he also the one who claimed the Egyptian Airline plane that went down near Long Island a few years ago because of a suicidal pilot, was actually shot down by the US Govt using a SAM? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #4 May 16, 2004 I'm pretty sure you're confusing your stories and authors. You might wanna do a Google on it.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jib 0 #5 May 16, 2004 Irrespective of any position on the propriety of the acts in the prison, shouldn't we be a little upset about a former official's leaking classified information? -------------------------------------------------- the depth of his depravity sickens me. -- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #6 May 16, 2004 Depends on what classified information we're talking about. If someone leaks our war plans, yes, he's a traitor to our troops and our country. If someone leaks that we've sanctioned human rights violations . . . I dunno, kinda makes him a hero in my book.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jib 0 #7 May 16, 2004 QuoteIf someone leaks that we've sanctioned human rights violations . . . I dunno, kinda makes him a hero in my book. What if someone leaks the existence of a classified program? Is he still a hero? Isn't that separate and apart from reporting violations? Traitor or hero? -------------------------------------------------- the depth of his depravity sickens me. -- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,107 #8 May 16, 2004 >What if someone leaks the existence of a classified program? Or leaks the identity of one of our undercover CIA agents to the press for political purposes? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jib 0 #9 May 16, 2004 Quote>What if someone leaks the existence of a classified program? Or leaks the identity of one of our undercover CIA agents to the press for political purposes? That discussion would be here: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=684196#684196 I don't hear anyone calling for the names of the person who leaked the info here. So, if it's political and involving one person, then it needs a special investigator, when it involves a lot more.... -------------------------------------------------- the depth of his depravity sickens me. -- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #10 May 17, 2004 Someone is confused. The Pentagon first denies Hersch's revelations, and then confirms one of them. www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0405170095may17,1,81591.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #11 May 17, 2004 Can you post some of the article? They require registration... Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #12 May 17, 2004 QuoteCan you post some of the article? They require registration... It's quite long - here's the first part. WASHINGTON -- About 100 high-ranking Iraqi prisoners held for months at a time in Spartan conditions on the outskirts of Baghdad International Airport are being detained under a special chain of command, under conditions not subject to approval by the American commander in Iraq, according to military officials. The unusual lines of authority in the detainees' handling are part of a tangled network of authority over prisoners in Iraq, in which military police, military intelligence, the Central Intelligence Agency, the Defense Intelligence Agency, various military commanders and the Pentagon have all played a role. Congressional investigators looking into the scandal over the abuse of Iraqi prisoners say those arrangements have made it difficult to determine where the final authority lies. Many of the 100 or so prisoners categorized by U.S. officials as "high-value detainees," because of the special intelligence they are believed to possess, for many months have been held for nearly 23 hours a day in strict solitary confinement in small concrete cells without sunlight, according to an International Committee of the Red Cross report. While not tantamount to the sexual humiliation and other abuses inflicted on Iraqi detainees at Abu Ghraib prison, the conditions have been described by the Red Cross as a violation of the Geneva Conventions, which the Bush administration has said it regards as "fully applicable" to prisoners in Iraq. Under arrangements in effect since October, military officials said at a Pentagon briefing Friday, explicit authorization from the American commander, Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, has been required in each of about 25 cases in which Iraqi prisoners have been subjected to isolation for longer than 30 days. But on Sunday, a senior military officer said that statement did not apply to the prisoners being held at the airport, because "we were not the authority" for the high-value detainees. The officer referred questions about the high-value Iraqi prisoners to the U.S. Central Command in Tampa, where a spokesman said he could not answer them Sunday. Defense Department officials said the principal responsibility for the high-value prisoners and their treatment belongs to the Iraq Survey Group, headed by Maj. Gen. Keith Dayton of the Defense Intelligence Agency. The so-called high-value Iraqi detainees said by military officials to be held at Camp Cropper on the airport's outskirts do not include Saddam Hussein, who was captured in December and is being held by the FBI elsewhere in Iraq, U.S. government officials have said. These officials say Hussein has been held in isolation. In the report completed in February, the Red Cross committee said it wrote to American officials in October recommending an end to the isolation imposed on the high-value prisoners.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,107 #13 May 17, 2004 Another article, this one from Newsweek: -------------------------------------- But a NEWSWEEK investigation shows that, as a means of pre-empting a repeat of 9/11, Bush, along with Defense Secretary Rumsfeld and Attorney General John Ashcroft, signed off on a secret system of detention and interrogation that opened the door to such methods. It was an approach that they adopted to sidestep the historical safeguards of the Geneva Conventions, which protect the rights of detainees and prisoners of war. In doing so, they overrode the objections of Secretary of State Colin Powell and America's top military lawyers—and they left underlings to sweat the details of what actually happened to prisoners in these lawless places. While no one deliberately authorized outright torture, these techniques entailed a systematic softening up of prisoners through isolation, privations, insults, threats and humiliation—methods that the Red Cross concluded were "tantamount to torture." ------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #14 May 17, 2004 Don't you just love the part where the White House Counsel calls the Geneva Conventions "Obsolete" and "Quaint"?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
benny 0 #15 May 17, 2004 Didn't Bush say one time that his adminstration had done more for human rights...? As far as I can see the Bush administration has done basically everything it can to destroy human rights. Never go to a DZ strip show. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,107 #16 May 17, 2004 >Didn't Bush say one time that his adminstration had done more for human rights...? Yeah, but that's so 2003. From a Bush statement last year: ------------------------------------------------------- Today, on the United Nations International Day in Support of Victims of Torture, the United States declares its strong solidarity with torture victims across the world. Torture anywhere is an affront to human dignity everywhere. We are committed to building a world where human rights are respected and protected by the rule of law. . . . Until recently, Saddam Hussein used similar means to hide the crimes of his regime. With Iraq's liberation, the world is only now learning the enormity of the dictator's three decades of victimization of the Iraqi people. Across the country, evidence of Baathist atrocities is mounting, including scores of mass graves containing the remains of thousands of men, women, and children and torture chambers hidden inside palaces and ministries. The most compelling evidence of all lies in the stories told by torture survivors, who are recounting a vast array of sadistic acts perpetrated against the innocent. Their testimony reminds us of their great courage in outlasting one of history's most brutal regimes, and it reminds us that similar cruelties are taking place behind the closed doors of other prison states. The United States is committed to the world-wide elimination of torture and we are leading this fight by example. ------------------------------------------------------ Ironic ain't it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
benny 0 #17 May 17, 2004 Yeah, I just wonder if Bush actually believes, hell, even comprehends the words of the speeches he reads or if he's really just phonetically literate. Maybe he's delusional, I mean, how can you make the claims he does about human rights while systematically undermining the native and international systems which help to protect those rights? I remember back in the early days of the war they (the administration) was hedging on calling it a war ("the Iraqi battle of the war on terror") because if it was a war we would be an occupying power and subject to the laws of the Geneva Conventions. Never go to a DZ strip show. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
