78RATS 0 #1 May 14, 2004 Obviously sodomy is over the line, but what about some of the grayer tactics? Is it unacceptable wartime interrogation practice to wake you up every few hours and play loud music in your ears while promising relief if you cooperate? Are the hoods over the top? Rat for Life - Fly till I die When them stupid ass bitches ask why Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #2 May 14, 2004 Name, Rank and serial number. Doing ANYTHING to extract more info than that is torture. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
speedy 0 #3 May 14, 2004 being grounded for whatever reason is torture. Sitting at the DZ while it rains is torture. Sleep deprivation? Don't think so, base jumpers don't seem to mind going without sleep to get that illegal jump in. Dave Fallschirmsport Marl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #4 May 14, 2004 Keeping the tequila bottle of me for entertainment purposes is torture. There are dz.com'ers guilty of this. You know who you are. Fess up! Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,589 #5 May 14, 2004 The rules for police aren't spelled out quite as clearly. Even for things like sleep deprivation, there's a vast range, from waking up to interrogate, to not allowing to sleep for very extended periods. The second would most certainly count as torture. Depending on how applied, the first could be construed as suiting the schedule of the captors. Name, rank, and serial number is all they're required to give. Interrogation is to see if you can get more out of them. But one of the main reasons to have a POW is to keep him from fighting. That can be done without knowing anything but name, rank, and serial number. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #6 May 14, 2004 You can keep me from fighting - I promise. My name is Eric Stratford Stephenson My Rank is Able Seaman My serial number is 78501772 BT. There we go. No more wars for me! tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
78RATS 0 #7 May 14, 2004 This ain't bowling. If you could stop the bombing of the Cole or the murder of thousands in the WTC by hooding the subject and keeping him awake for extended periods...... Rat for Life - Fly till I die When them stupid ass bitches ask why Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #8 May 14, 2004 >If you could stop the bombing of the Cole or the murder of > thousands in the WTC by hooding the subject and keeping him > awake for extended periods...... Ends justifying means? If you could stop the WTC by torturing one innocent Afghani, would you? If killing him would stop it, would you do that? How about killing a six-month-old Afghani? That's a very slippery slope. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #9 May 14, 2004 QuoteThis ain't bowling. If you could stop the bombing of the Cole or the murder of thousands in the WTC by hooding the subject and keeping him awake for extended periods...... Well if you feel that way - then why don't you suggest to your government that they withdraw from the Geneva convention? The US don't recognise the World Court anyway - so there will never be a US charged with war crimes. The US Military code of justice does not even have a clear definition of rape - so soldiers can't be charged with it. And your enemy is already executing civilians on the web and ripping your "contractors" to bits. Just a thought. A start down that slippery slope Billvon mentioned. No one will stop you. You're too big. Too powerful. And Power corupts. Absolut power? Well... you know the end of that one, don't you? tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #10 May 14, 2004 QuoteIf you could stop the WTC by torturing one innocent Afghani, would you? Seriously, Bill, how would that stop it? Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,589 #11 May 14, 2004 When you hood and torture someone, you have no idea if they actually have the knowledge you're seeking. You hope they do (or maybe they just look like someone who could), but you really don't most of the time. Bill was asking where does it become OK to torture -- what type of person, what level of torture, by using an admittedly unlikely example. But it's one way to get people to think. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #12 May 14, 2004 QuoteQuoteIf you could stop the WTC by torturing one innocent Afghani, would you? Seriously, Bill, how would that stop it? Ciels- Michele It would be as effective as torturing prisoners in Iraq. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #13 May 14, 2004 >>If you could stop the WTC by torturing one innocent Afghani, would you? >Seriously, Bill, how would that stop it? I have no idea! There are people who clearly believe that torture (or abuse, or non-geneva-convention methods of making prisoners talk) can help stop terrorism. I don't buy that - it leads to more bad information, not more good information - but it's clearly accepted by at least some. But the original question was "if you could do X to someone and stop the WTC attacks would you?" is still an interesting one. If you somehow _could_ know that torturing or murdering someone would stop another 9/11, would you do it? Would it matter if the person you killed was muslim or christian, guilty or innocent, a 33 year old male or a 6 month old child? It's a variation of the famous trolley problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #14 May 14, 2004 Unsuccessful poll. I didn't vote. Why can't we select more than one?! If we select just the one we're allowed, does that imply we think the others are not torture? Whoops. --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #15 May 14, 2004 Quote>If you could stop the bombing of the Cole or the murder of > thousands in the WTC by hooding the subject and keeping him > awake for extended periods...... Ends justifying means? If you could stop the WTC by torturing one innocent Afghani, would you? If killing him would stop it, would you do that? How about killing a six-month-old Afghani? That's a very slippery slope. I think it should be pretty obvious that the "torture" you'd engage in would have to be in some way relevant to what you were going to prevent! I mean, killing a six-month-old Afghani, how would that prevent the WTC attacks? Likewise, I wouldn't say, "Go chop the legs of of 500 puppies to prevent the OKC bombing" or something. But if you find a guy whom you know knows something about an imminent attack, I can't say I have a tremendous moral problem with dragging it out of him. I'm talking about people you really know have something hidden, not someone you'd torture just to check whether he knew. Yes, it's difficult to keep such a policy under control. Why would you think I had all the details of this issue worked out, when our leaders don't even? --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #16 May 14, 2004 >But if you find a guy whom you know knows something about an > imminent attack, I can't say I have a tremendous moral problem > with dragging it out of him. OK, then. You arrest four people. You know that one has info on the next terrorist attack that will kill thousands, and the only way to get it out of him is to cut his fingers off one by one. But you don't know which one it is, and the other three are probably innocent. What do you do? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tunaplanet 0 #17 May 17, 2004 QuoteDoing ANYTHING to extract more info than that is torture. Really? Try again. Not even remotely close to being true. Forty-two Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JayhawkJumper 0 #18 May 17, 2004 I'm confused, so the head line said what is torture and then there was just a bunch of frat pranks listed???? But seriously, I'd say if these guys were actually found in the prisons doing those numerous acts of torture against iraqi civilians we've heard about a lot, then they deserve a lot worse than being sodomized, much much worse. I wouldn't have been crying too many tears if this happened to the special SS division in the death camps either. If they are simply soldiers as part of the uniformed army, then they should be treated according to the Geneva convention. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
78RATS 0 #19 May 17, 2004 QuoteIf you could stop the WTC by torturing one innocent Afghani, would you? Actually, if I was sure it would, my answer would be a reluctant yes. However, that's not the question I was focusing on. Read the following excerpt from an article posted in another thread and look at the techniques they "authorized". "A key player was Major General Geoffrey Miller, the commander of the detention and interrogation center at Guantánamo, who had been summoned to Baghdad in late August to review prison interrogation procedures. The internal Army report on the abuse charges, written by Major General Antonio Taguba in February, revealed that Miller urged that the commanders in Baghdad change policy and place military intelligence in charge of the prison. The report quoted Miller as recommending that “detention operations must act as an enabler for interrogation.” Miller’s concept, as it emerged in recent Senate hearings, was to “Gitmoize” the prison system in Iraq—to make it more focussed on interrogation. He also briefed military commanders in Iraq on the interrogation methods used in Cuba—methods that could, with special approval, include sleep deprivation, exposure to extremes of cold and heat, and placing prisoners in “stress positions” for agonizing lengths of time" Torture? Rat for Life - Fly till I die When them stupid ass bitches ask why Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #20 May 17, 2004 None of those seem very 'gray' to me. I believe someone mentioned frat pranks. Maybe you should add the following to your 'grey' list: a - Make them use cotton instead of flannel sheets b - No hair conditioner, just shampoo c - Regular mayonaise instead of miracle whip d - no entering the health club after 10 pm. Ok, 11 e - no red wine with dinner, only white wine spritzers Edit - re-edited, sarcasm deleted ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
