kallend 2,150 #26 May 14, 2004 Quote>Are those the nuclear weapons you are talking about or some other ones? I'm talking about the ones that meant that we could not "wait for the final proof -- the smoking gun -- that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud," and thus we had to attack immediately. I don't know which ones Bush was referring to, but apparently they were a grave threat to the US - and Saddam had them. Are they the ones GWB said (in a Rose garden interview) could be deployed in 45 minutes (or was that CBW?)... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #27 May 14, 2004 QuoteEspecially when you go to war wearing your "white hat" to liberate a population that didn't ask to be liberated. Just curious... how does a population ask to be liberated? What percentage of them asking would be enough that we should care? Since Saddam was in charge, and spoke for his country... should he have been the one to ask for liberation? There have been Iraqi groups living in exile that have been asking for Saddam's removal for a long time. Does that count?Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
newsstand 0 #28 May 14, 2004 An active in country resistence comes to mind. Not a bunch of fat old men in suits living elsewhere telling us their countrymen need liberating. And if we are going to remove all of the despots from power we have a long list to start working on. Oh wait they are not sitting on or near vast oil reserves. Well in that case let them crush their own countries. "Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening." -- Oliver Wendell Holmes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #29 May 14, 2004 An active resistance? Like the kurds? Or was that not enough? Or how about places with dictators so brutal that all resistance is crushed viciously before it gets started? I'll ask again, in case anyone has a good answer. How does the people of a country ask that their government be removed? What percentage of the population should ask? Should they vote on it at the risk of death? Come on... someone has to have a better reply than that.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #30 May 14, 2004 >Or how about places with dictators so brutal that all resistance is >crushed viciously before it gets started? Uh, we're crushing resistance pretty viciously right now; we're killing a lot of rebels. And the people of Iraq want us out, per polls. It's not always black and white. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kmcguffee 0 #31 May 15, 2004 QuoteIts unprecedented for the US to invade a sovereign nation that hasn't attacked or threatened it. What about Germany and Italy? They didn't attack us before we invaded them back in WWII. Pearl Harbor was an attack on the US by Japan. Remember the Mexican-American War in 1846-1848? The US did the invading during that war without being attacked by Mexico. We attacked because Texas wanted to secede (they considered themselves a Republic at the start) and Mexico didn't want to let it (Mexico considered Texas a rebellious territory). According to Mexico, Texas was still a part of Mexico at the time of the war. We eventually invaded Mexico after attacking the Mexican Army in disputed areas along the border. In WWI, the Germans only accidentally killed US citizens riding on other country's ships. They sent a few saboteurs to the US that did less damage than 90% of the terrorist attacks on the US have done. We invaded Grenada because they had a rebellion and changed to a Marxist government that we didn't like. They didn't attack us. We used the excuse of saving the stranded college students but that wasn't the real reason. BTW - Europe whined big time about this invasion also. That's the ones I can think up for now. I'm sure there are others. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #32 May 15, 2004 So we should have asked the Iraqis in a poll if they wanted our help to get Saddam out? I bet that would have worked.... you guys have got it nailed! But wait... if the majority wants us out and a large minority want us there... should we abandon those guys? And as for crushing resistance??? Come on... would you call the Nazis in WW2 a "resistance" since we invaded their turf? I bet a poll of the Germans at that time would have wanted us out too. Anyway, still waiting on an answer.... how can countries ask for regime change?Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #33 May 15, 2004 QuoteQuoteIts unprecedented for the US to invade a sovereign nation that hasn't attacked or threatened it. What about Germany and Italy? They didn't attack us before we invaded them back in WWII. Pearl Harbor was an attack on the US by Japan. . Germany declared war on the USA on December 11, 1941, not the other way around.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #34 May 15, 2004 Quote>Are those the nuclear weapons you are talking about or some other ones? I'm talking about the ones that meant that we could not "wait for the final proof -- the smoking gun -- that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud," and thus we had to attack immediately. I don't know which ones Bush was referring to, but apparently they were a grave threat to the US - and Saddam had them. Ok so you are talking about the nuclear weapons John Kerry said not to vote for him if you didn't believe SH had. Just checking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #35 May 15, 2004 So it's acceptable for South Korea to invade North Korea since, technically, they're still at war? Or how about Saddam's army firing on US and other UN nations' aircraft during the No Fly rules, is that not an act of war? Just curious... Still waiting for an answer to the question... how does a people invite another nation to topple their government? And also, if a poll shows the majority of Iraqis want the US out, is it okay for us to abandon the large minority who want our help?Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
benny 0 #36 May 15, 2004 Quote Or how about Saddam's army firing on US and other UN nations' aircraft during the No Fly rules, is that not an act of war? Just curious... Still waiting for an answer to the question... how does a people invite another nation to topple their government? We'd fire on someone trying to patrol our airspace wouldn't we? I sure hope so. If not what good did it do us to have GW patrolling the skies of Texas? UN rules or not firing on planes patrolling the "no fly" zone seems pretty reasonable to me. I would say that people don't invite another nation to topple their own gov't but rather take action themselves primarily and ask for assistance from others. Never go to a DZ strip show. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #37 May 15, 2004 QuoteQuote Or how about Saddam's army firing on US and other UN nations' aircraft during the No Fly rules, is that not an act of war? Just curious... Still waiting for an answer to the question... how does a people invite another nation to topple their government? Quote UN rules or not firing on planes patrolling the "no fly" zone seems pretty reasonable to me. If your country had been defeated in a war and had agreed to a "cease-fire", how does breaking the agreement seem reasonable? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites newsstand 0 #38 May 15, 2004 Well if the Kurds are your choice then we should invade Turkey too. Free Kurdistan! "Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening." -- Oliver Wendell Holmes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflybella 0 #39 May 15, 2004 I've been watching this thread with hopes that some of the thoughtful, intelligent people out there might have some insight regarding the original post. So far no one has addressed it at all. Why do sex and violence go, so easily and often, hand in hand? Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Michele 1 #40 May 15, 2004 QuoteI've been watching this thread with hopes that some of the thoughtful, intelligent people out there might have some insight regarding the original post. Phew. That leaves me out! Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,150 #41 May 15, 2004 QuoteI've been watching this thread with hopes that some of the thoughtful, intelligent people out there might have some insight regarding the original post. So far no one has addressed it at all. Why do sex and violence go, so easily and often, hand in hand? Well, "Physics" shares a lot of letters in common with "Psychology", so I'll venture a guess that people who are prone to violence do not, in general, lead normal satisfying sex lives, with the consequences you observe.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites benny 0 #42 May 15, 2004 Quote If your country had been defeated in a war and had agreed to a "cease-fire", how does breaking the agreement seem reasonable? OK, so yeah, assuming I was head of my country, the USA, and we somehow got our asses kicked... yeah, I'd lie to the world and tell them whatever they wanted to hear to get them out and then I'd do whatever the hell I thought was in the interests of my people, even if that meant shooting down the war planes of the foreign invaders. Wouldn't you do the same GM? If somebody invaded and kicked the US's ass? Never go to a DZ strip show. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #43 May 15, 2004 QuoteQuote If your country had been defeated in a war and had agreed to a "cease-fire", how does breaking the agreement seem reasonable? OK, so yeah, assuming I was head of my country, the USA, and we somehow got our asses kicked... yeah, I'd lie to the world and tell them whatever they wanted to hear to get them out and then I'd do whatever the hell I thought was in the interests of my people, even if that meant shooting down the war planes of the foreign invaders. Wouldn't you do the same GM? If somebody invaded and kicked the US's ass? Yes, I probably would do the same but it would still be an act of war and I couldn't agree to it and then claim later it wasn't reasonable. BTW how ya been? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nacmacfeegle 0 #44 May 17, 2004 "Still waiting for an answer to the question... how does a people invite another nation to topple their government?" Your not going to like it Trent, but I'll step up and answer......you do it via the UN. Anything else is normally called a coup, an invasion, or a liberation. "And also, if a poll shows the majority of Iraqis want the US out, is it okay for us to abandon the large minority who want our help?" There were 2 polls that stuck in my mind recently, the first was one held in Iraq prior to the invasion, and it demonstrated almost unanimous support for Saddam from the people of Iraq, democracy in action? The other poll was conducted by the UN security council regarding the response to a perceived global security situation in Iraq, and we all know the upshot of that one. There is a situation developing in Darfur, western Sudan, it will be interesting to see how the UN and various other states react to a growing humanitarian crisis set against the backdrop of a crippling civil war. I fear that the UN will be too slow to prevent the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, and recent outrage at unilateral action by the coalition will deter countries from 'interfering'. Meanwhile, its the little people who will suffer.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Trent 0 #45 May 17, 2004 QuoteYour not going to like it Trent, but I'll step up and answer......you do it via the UN. Anything else is normally called a coup, an invasion, or a liberation. Correct. I don't like it because it's completely unreasonable. Does the UN have a "Help For Removing Brutal and Oppressive Regimes" hotline? QuoteThere were 2 polls that stuck in my mind recently, the first was one held in Iraq prior to the invasion, and it demonstrated almost unanimous support for Saddam from the people of Iraq, democracy in action? I'll take the for what we all know it means. You're right... so polls are out. Hmmmmm, so my question still stands... HOW DOES A PEOPLE INVITE ANOTHER COUNTRY TO HELP THEM OVERTHROW A BRUTAL GOVERNMENT? - The UN "Help Us" hotline is out, they wouldn't listen anyway. - Polls won't work because they only have one choice when they answer. The only thing I can think is that sometimes, a country or group of countries have to stand up and do what they think is best. Not everyone will agree with what is done, but when will they ever? And since no one has come up with a feasible answer (thanks for trying though, Nac, miss ya!), I guess we can stop with the BS about how the US went into Iraq "uninvited". Right?Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,150 #46 May 17, 2004 QuoteQuoteYour not going to like it Trent, but I'll step up and answer......you do it via the UN. Anything else is normally called a coup, an invasion, or a liberation. Correct. I don't like it because it's completely unreasonable. Does the UN have a "Help For Removing Brutal and Oppressive Regimes" hotline? QuoteThere were 2 polls that stuck in my mind recently, the first was one held in Iraq prior to the invasion, and it demonstrated almost unanimous support for Saddam from the people of Iraq, democracy in action? I'll take the for what we all know it means. You're right... so polls are out. Hmmmmm, so my question still stands... HOW DOES A PEOPLE INVITE ANOTHER COUNTRY TO HELP THEM OVERTHROW A BRUTAL GOVERNMENT? - The UN "Help Us" hotline is out, they wouldn't listen anyway. - Polls won't work because they only have one choice when they answer. And since no one has come up with a feasible answer (thanks for trying though, Nac, miss ya!), I guess we can stop with the BS about how the US went into Iraq "uninvited". Right? Wrong. Read your history book and see how France joined the Colonies during the Revolutionary War. Find out how Castro got help to overthrow Baptista. Find out how Khomeini overthrew the Shah. Find out how Mandela overthrew the apartheid regime in SA. Do your own homework.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Trent 0 #47 May 17, 2004 QuoteRead your history book and see how France joined the Colonies during the Revolutionary War. I read the book that said France got involved for a number of reasons, including: - A desire to have a victory over Britain (the other big kid on the block at the time). - Get "revenge" for losing the most territory ever in 1763. - Securing trade with the West Indies and fishing off of Newfoundland. France was no friend to the colonists prior to the revolution, but getting Britain out was more important. Which book did you read? QuoteFind out how Castro got help to overthrow Baptista. You mean how he waged a guerilla war against Batista with the help of disgruntled government military leaders, students, and citizens? Or how the US cut off Batista from weapon sales and urged him to leave office peacefully? Or did you mean how Castro allied Cuba with the USSR AFTER he siezed power? QuoteFind out how Khomeini overthrew the Shah. A lot of what I've read frames this event as a mainly political movement supported by Khomeni's followers. Doesn't look like they got too much help. Russia had some interest, but wasn't that excited about seeing an Islamic fundamentalist state set up, besides they had some sweet deals with the Shah's government. QuoteFind out how Mandela overthrew the apartheid regime in SA. While it wasn't necessarily peaceful, a combination of world pressure on DeKlerk, strikes, work stoppages, riots, politically motivated violence, and voting seemed to get rid of the apartheid based government in SA. So, what's your point Kallend? How about you just humor my non-college-professor intellect and answer my original question? QuoteDo your own homework. But hey, I'm only a young American... what do I know? And even if I do my homework, unless I read the books that YOU tell me to... I'm being lied to, right?Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites piisfish 140 #48 May 17, 2004 QuoteSodomy with a glowstick? Sticking fingers in the prisoners ass? Forcing or simulating sexual acts between prisoners? What the fuck is that? What kinds of people do that? maybe they have no-one to try it at home scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,150 #49 May 18, 2004 QuoteSo, what's your point Kallend? How about you just humor my non-college-professor intellect and answer my original question? The point has been made already. In each case I mentioned (and many I didn't) a government was overthrown from within by people who managed get help from without. This shows that it's not impossible by any means, even if I don't know the exact method by which they solicited help. The results speak for themselves, so your thesis is incorrect.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Trent 0 #50 May 18, 2004 Fortunately, you didn't get to grade my thesis. Do you really read any posts in their entirety? Only in ONE of the instances you mentioned was there a significant 3rd party helping out. In any case.... So to use your examples... it would be fair to say that even in instances of rather small (% of population-wise) movements to overthrow a dictator/government, intervention by a 3rd party is only acceptable if they are invited. So we can say that the ex-patriated Iraqis and anti-Saddam Iraqis DID invite us to overthrow Saddam, and using your logic... that's acceptable. The reason I even argue this is because I've noticed you are fond of stating that we are "uninvited" in Iraq. Well, yes, some people don't want us there... and the polls may or may not be right... but I don't doubt that a lot of Iraqis want us out. But I also understand that there is a large minority of people (maybe larger than we think since polls can be manipulated, as nacmac pointed out) who DO want us there to stabilze the country so that they can rebuild a fair and representative government. So here's the original question... for the last time: How does a population ask to be liberated? What percentage of them asking would be enough that we should care? And your answer so far has been more or less: by fighting against their own government. You have no response as of yet to the 2nd part. So, since there WAS factions fighting against Saddam from WITHIN Iraq... there was an open invitation to overthrow his regime. By your rationale, we were "invited". Just an aside question to help me understand your overall stance on things: Would you describe yourself as an isolationist? What is a justifiable reason for a country to go war, besides direct self-defense?Oh, hello again! 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newsstand 0 #38 May 15, 2004 Well if the Kurds are your choice then we should invade Turkey too. Free Kurdistan! "Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening." -- Oliver Wendell Holmes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflybella 0 #39 May 15, 2004 I've been watching this thread with hopes that some of the thoughtful, intelligent people out there might have some insight regarding the original post. So far no one has addressed it at all. Why do sex and violence go, so easily and often, hand in hand? Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #40 May 15, 2004 QuoteI've been watching this thread with hopes that some of the thoughtful, intelligent people out there might have some insight regarding the original post. Phew. That leaves me out! Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #41 May 15, 2004 QuoteI've been watching this thread with hopes that some of the thoughtful, intelligent people out there might have some insight regarding the original post. So far no one has addressed it at all. Why do sex and violence go, so easily and often, hand in hand? Well, "Physics" shares a lot of letters in common with "Psychology", so I'll venture a guess that people who are prone to violence do not, in general, lead normal satisfying sex lives, with the consequences you observe.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
benny 0 #42 May 15, 2004 Quote If your country had been defeated in a war and had agreed to a "cease-fire", how does breaking the agreement seem reasonable? OK, so yeah, assuming I was head of my country, the USA, and we somehow got our asses kicked... yeah, I'd lie to the world and tell them whatever they wanted to hear to get them out and then I'd do whatever the hell I thought was in the interests of my people, even if that meant shooting down the war planes of the foreign invaders. Wouldn't you do the same GM? If somebody invaded and kicked the US's ass? Never go to a DZ strip show. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #43 May 15, 2004 QuoteQuote If your country had been defeated in a war and had agreed to a "cease-fire", how does breaking the agreement seem reasonable? OK, so yeah, assuming I was head of my country, the USA, and we somehow got our asses kicked... yeah, I'd lie to the world and tell them whatever they wanted to hear to get them out and then I'd do whatever the hell I thought was in the interests of my people, even if that meant shooting down the war planes of the foreign invaders. Wouldn't you do the same GM? If somebody invaded and kicked the US's ass? Yes, I probably would do the same but it would still be an act of war and I couldn't agree to it and then claim later it wasn't reasonable. BTW how ya been? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #44 May 17, 2004 "Still waiting for an answer to the question... how does a people invite another nation to topple their government?" Your not going to like it Trent, but I'll step up and answer......you do it via the UN. Anything else is normally called a coup, an invasion, or a liberation. "And also, if a poll shows the majority of Iraqis want the US out, is it okay for us to abandon the large minority who want our help?" There were 2 polls that stuck in my mind recently, the first was one held in Iraq prior to the invasion, and it demonstrated almost unanimous support for Saddam from the people of Iraq, democracy in action? The other poll was conducted by the UN security council regarding the response to a perceived global security situation in Iraq, and we all know the upshot of that one. There is a situation developing in Darfur, western Sudan, it will be interesting to see how the UN and various other states react to a growing humanitarian crisis set against the backdrop of a crippling civil war. I fear that the UN will be too slow to prevent the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, and recent outrage at unilateral action by the coalition will deter countries from 'interfering'. Meanwhile, its the little people who will suffer.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #45 May 17, 2004 QuoteYour not going to like it Trent, but I'll step up and answer......you do it via the UN. Anything else is normally called a coup, an invasion, or a liberation. Correct. I don't like it because it's completely unreasonable. Does the UN have a "Help For Removing Brutal and Oppressive Regimes" hotline? QuoteThere were 2 polls that stuck in my mind recently, the first was one held in Iraq prior to the invasion, and it demonstrated almost unanimous support for Saddam from the people of Iraq, democracy in action? I'll take the for what we all know it means. You're right... so polls are out. Hmmmmm, so my question still stands... HOW DOES A PEOPLE INVITE ANOTHER COUNTRY TO HELP THEM OVERTHROW A BRUTAL GOVERNMENT? - The UN "Help Us" hotline is out, they wouldn't listen anyway. - Polls won't work because they only have one choice when they answer. The only thing I can think is that sometimes, a country or group of countries have to stand up and do what they think is best. Not everyone will agree with what is done, but when will they ever? And since no one has come up with a feasible answer (thanks for trying though, Nac, miss ya!), I guess we can stop with the BS about how the US went into Iraq "uninvited". Right?Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #46 May 17, 2004 QuoteQuoteYour not going to like it Trent, but I'll step up and answer......you do it via the UN. Anything else is normally called a coup, an invasion, or a liberation. Correct. I don't like it because it's completely unreasonable. Does the UN have a "Help For Removing Brutal and Oppressive Regimes" hotline? QuoteThere were 2 polls that stuck in my mind recently, the first was one held in Iraq prior to the invasion, and it demonstrated almost unanimous support for Saddam from the people of Iraq, democracy in action? I'll take the for what we all know it means. You're right... so polls are out. Hmmmmm, so my question still stands... HOW DOES A PEOPLE INVITE ANOTHER COUNTRY TO HELP THEM OVERTHROW A BRUTAL GOVERNMENT? - The UN "Help Us" hotline is out, they wouldn't listen anyway. - Polls won't work because they only have one choice when they answer. And since no one has come up with a feasible answer (thanks for trying though, Nac, miss ya!), I guess we can stop with the BS about how the US went into Iraq "uninvited". Right? Wrong. Read your history book and see how France joined the Colonies during the Revolutionary War. Find out how Castro got help to overthrow Baptista. Find out how Khomeini overthrew the Shah. Find out how Mandela overthrew the apartheid regime in SA. Do your own homework.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #47 May 17, 2004 QuoteRead your history book and see how France joined the Colonies during the Revolutionary War. I read the book that said France got involved for a number of reasons, including: - A desire to have a victory over Britain (the other big kid on the block at the time). - Get "revenge" for losing the most territory ever in 1763. - Securing trade with the West Indies and fishing off of Newfoundland. France was no friend to the colonists prior to the revolution, but getting Britain out was more important. Which book did you read? QuoteFind out how Castro got help to overthrow Baptista. You mean how he waged a guerilla war against Batista with the help of disgruntled government military leaders, students, and citizens? Or how the US cut off Batista from weapon sales and urged him to leave office peacefully? Or did you mean how Castro allied Cuba with the USSR AFTER he siezed power? QuoteFind out how Khomeini overthrew the Shah. A lot of what I've read frames this event as a mainly political movement supported by Khomeni's followers. Doesn't look like they got too much help. Russia had some interest, but wasn't that excited about seeing an Islamic fundamentalist state set up, besides they had some sweet deals with the Shah's government. QuoteFind out how Mandela overthrew the apartheid regime in SA. While it wasn't necessarily peaceful, a combination of world pressure on DeKlerk, strikes, work stoppages, riots, politically motivated violence, and voting seemed to get rid of the apartheid based government in SA. So, what's your point Kallend? How about you just humor my non-college-professor intellect and answer my original question? QuoteDo your own homework. But hey, I'm only a young American... what do I know? And even if I do my homework, unless I read the books that YOU tell me to... I'm being lied to, right?Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 140 #48 May 17, 2004 QuoteSodomy with a glowstick? Sticking fingers in the prisoners ass? Forcing or simulating sexual acts between prisoners? What the fuck is that? What kinds of people do that? maybe they have no-one to try it at home scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #49 May 18, 2004 QuoteSo, what's your point Kallend? How about you just humor my non-college-professor intellect and answer my original question? The point has been made already. In each case I mentioned (and many I didn't) a government was overthrown from within by people who managed get help from without. This shows that it's not impossible by any means, even if I don't know the exact method by which they solicited help. The results speak for themselves, so your thesis is incorrect.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #50 May 18, 2004 Fortunately, you didn't get to grade my thesis. Do you really read any posts in their entirety? Only in ONE of the instances you mentioned was there a significant 3rd party helping out. In any case.... So to use your examples... it would be fair to say that even in instances of rather small (% of population-wise) movements to overthrow a dictator/government, intervention by a 3rd party is only acceptable if they are invited. So we can say that the ex-patriated Iraqis and anti-Saddam Iraqis DID invite us to overthrow Saddam, and using your logic... that's acceptable. The reason I even argue this is because I've noticed you are fond of stating that we are "uninvited" in Iraq. Well, yes, some people don't want us there... and the polls may or may not be right... but I don't doubt that a lot of Iraqis want us out. But I also understand that there is a large minority of people (maybe larger than we think since polls can be manipulated, as nacmac pointed out) who DO want us there to stabilze the country so that they can rebuild a fair and representative government. So here's the original question... for the last time: How does a population ask to be liberated? What percentage of them asking would be enough that we should care? And your answer so far has been more or less: by fighting against their own government. You have no response as of yet to the 2nd part. So, since there WAS factions fighting against Saddam from WITHIN Iraq... there was an open invitation to overthrow his regime. By your rationale, we were "invited". Just an aside question to help me understand your overall stance on things: Would you describe yourself as an isolationist? What is a justifiable reason for a country to go war, besides direct self-defense?Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
