Hybrid Cars - more hype than hip?

[AndyMan 7]

From slashdot.

"Wired News is running a great little article about how hybrid cars (specifically Honda and Toyota models) do not come anywhere close to living up to their fuel efficiency claims. The article highlights that the EPA tests are more to blame than the car manufactures. Consumer reports has shown that the mileage for these cars can be as low as 60% of the claims. The article also links to a blog authored by hybrid enthusiast Pete Blackshaw detailing his failures getting any real answers on why his Honda Civic Hybrid isn't getting better fuel mileage. It looks like these cars are more hype than help in the battle against pollution and foreign fuel reliance."

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You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[billvon 3,120]

>hybrid cars (specifically Honda and Toyota models) do not come
>anywhere close to living up to their fuel efficiency claims.

?? The Honda Civic Hybrid is rated 46 city/51 highway MPG. I get 46MPG when I drive normally and 55MPG when I'm careful. I've gotten as high as 66MPG by driving at 55, coasting a lot etc. So mine is getting _better_ than advertised fuel economy.

I have tried, on occasion, to get the worst mileage I can. I floor it at lights, brake hard at stop signs, don't let the idle-stop work etc. When I do that I get 32mpg, which is about what Pete got. His website notes that he made a video of him picking up the car complete with "foot-stomping" music - perhaps foot-stomping is the issue here.

[newsstand 0]

My son just got back from school in Nebraska and said that if you purchase a hybrid their the state sends you a bill for the lost gasoline tax revenue!

Can anyone verify this?

"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

[BikerBabe 0]

LOL, that sounds like a bad urban legend if I ever heard one.

mpg of ANY car depends greatly on how it's driven, Hybrid or no.

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[billvon 3,120]

>My son just got back from school in Nebraska and said that if you
> purchase a hybrid their the state sends you a bill for the lost
> gasoline tax revenue!

Man, I'd really be in trouble if this was true - I bike to work!

[kelpdiver 2]

Andy - definitely many people find they're not getting quite the EPA rating on the Insight or Prius. But they're still getting high 40s, which is better than my motorcycle (little fear coming on) and well above the national average of 26. 2X isn't the final solution but it's still a hell of an improvement.

Honda at times has sold a civic that got into the upper 30s or low 40s with a regular engine but I suspect at a lower performance.

I'm interested to see what sort of fuel economy they can deliver on the compact 4wd SUV models.

[metalslug 36]

Maybe I haven't been reading enough, but most of the hybrid cars I've seen, prototypes and production models, seem to focus a lot on economic efficiency.
In doing so, many motorists see hybrids as "wimp" cars. The cars often seem to have small engines generating only modest power and performance, and I think this perhaps discourages folks who prefer the (usualy) more substantial power output of traditional octane engines.

To improve the appeal of "enviroment friendly" cars; someone should build a 'squeaky clean', but serious, sports car or pickup. Something similar to a Ram or Viper perhaps, a 8-liter V10 hydrogen engine or similar. It wont matter much (or will it?) if it burns an entire fuel cell each day, at least its a 100% clean burn.. and allows the car some 'muscle' appeal.
I can understand that such designs will probably be quite expensive for general production and sales, but I think a few models will enhance the image of hybrids and 'green' cars.
They should be good for more than just driving Miss Daisy

[billvon 3,120]

>To improve the appeal of "enviroment friendly" cars; someone
> should build a 'squeaky clean', but serious, sports car or pickup.
> Something similar to a Ram or Viper perhaps, a 8-liter V10
> hydrogen engine or similar.

I agree! But such a vehicle would still have a small 4-cylinder gas engine that drives only the front wheels. The rear wheels would be driven by independent 100kW motors, for a total power output of around 350HP. Plus electric motors have the opposite torque curve of a gasoline engine, so all that power is available off the line.

[livendive 8]

Quote

To improve the appeal of "enviroment friendly" cars; someone should build a 'squeaky clean', but serious, sports car or pickup.

See this thread.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[markd_nscr986 0]

I'm holding out for a fuel cell car......providing my old jeep makes it another 4 or 5 years

Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004

[Jimbo 0]

Quote

To improve the appeal of "enviroment friendly" cars; someone should build a 'squeaky clean', but serious, sports car or pickup. Something similar to a Ram or Viper perhaps, a 8-liter V10 hydrogen engine or similar.

One of the big American manufacturers has a big hybrid utility (beefed up pickup) truck. IIRC, it's a 350-ish HP diesel/hybrid. Not sure if it's in production yet, I saw it on Car and Driver or a similar show.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[newsstand 0]

Quote

>My son just got back from school in Nebraska and said that if you
> purchase a hybrid their the state sends you a bill for the lost
> gasoline tax revenue!

Man, I'd really be in trouble if this was true - I bike to work!

Probably based on this.

The state employs a different fuel tax instrument for propane, natural gas and electricity used in vehicles. Instead of paying the state motor fuel tax at the
pump, owners of vehicles powered by these fuels are required to purchase an alternative fuel user permit on an annual basis pursuant to the Alternative Fuel Tax
Act. The Act specifies a formula which determines the amount of the annual fuel use tax liability for three vehicle classes passenger cars, pickup trucks and buses and trucks other than pickups. The user
permit is calculated by assuming a standard annual mileage of 15,000 miles which is divided by a fuel economy rating for each vehicle class, the result is then
multiplied by the average state motor fuel use tax rate. Based on this formula, passenger cars require $142.00 user permits, pickups require $197.00 user
permits and larger trucks and buses require $356.00 user permits.

page 67 of this PDF

So your bike is safe Bill.

"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

[BikerBabe 0]

And people wonder why hybrid or fuel efficient cars aren't more popular.

With crazy crap like this on the books, what incentive is there to get a more fuel-efficient vehicle? I say if you have to buy this thing, you should be exempt from fuel tax at the pump.

Isn't this taxing a hybrid car owner twice for the same thing?

The governement should be giving tax BREAKS to people who own these vehicles, like the feds do.

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Quote

My son just got back from school in Nebraska and said that if you purchase a hybrid their the state sends you a bill for the lost gasoline tax revenue!

Can anyone verify this?

That's absurd.

If that were the case, and they could charge you for the taxes you didn't spend, why not tax those who don't even own cars at all for what they don't spend in gas tax.

Ridiculous.

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[billvon 3,120]

>So your bike is safe Bill.

But if they are planning to charge an additonal fuel tax, and I ride a bike, are they going to tax my pizza?

[newsstand 0]

Ridiculous but apparently true. See my post two above yours.

"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

To improve the appeal of "enviroment friendly" cars; someone should build a 'squeaky clean', but serious, sports car or pickup.

Hybrids are not, nor will they ever be "squeaky clean". The best you can hope for out of a hybrid is a two-fold improvement.

As for a two-fold improvement in a serious sportscar or truck, I'm sure it'll come. This link shows a hybrid locomotive thats currently on the market. It's being used in railyards to move trains around. It's powered by a (relatively) small diesel engine, and the electrics only kick in when towing trains. http://www.railpower.com/greengoat.php

_Am

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You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

Quote

My son just got back from school in Nebraska and said that if you purchase a hybrid their the state sends you a bill for the lost gasoline tax revenue!

Can anyone verify this?

That's absurd.

If that were the case, and they could charge you for the taxes you didn't spend, why not tax those who don't even own cars at all for what they don't spend in gas tax.

Ridiculous.

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It actually kind of makes sense. The gas tax is probably used to pay for road repair. Getting good gas mileage doesn't put less wear and tear on the road. It also explains why you wouldn't tax someone who doesn't drive at all.

[riddler 0]

After doing my taxes this year, I discovered that Colorado gives a state rebate to people that own Hybrid cars. I am seriously considering replacing my 5-year old F-150 with a new Prius.

Also, one problem that has been noted is that dealerships often lower tire pressure below the recommended PSI for their cars. This supposedly gives the cars a smoother ride to encourage people to buy them, but it does reduce the effective gas mileage. A few people that have bought hybrids have reported seeing lower than expected gas mileage until they put the recommended air pressure in their tires, at which point, MPG went up to manufacturer claims.

Personally, I work from home and live in the middle of the city, so the only time I really put any miles on my truck is when I drive to the DZ. If it wasn't for skydiving, I could live without a car completely. Considering it cost $45 on my last fill-up, it seems well worth buying a more fuel-efficient auto.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[boudy 0]

Andy,
One of our old-time Hinckley skydivers, Julian D., has a Honda hydrid and is very happy with it. If I remember correctly, he told me that he got mpg performance slightly better than what Bill reports. Julian says he's kept an accurate log from day one. I think he's had it 2+ years. Sticker price wasn't cheap but his car doesn't seem like such a novelty today.

[billvon 3,120]

>Getting good gas mileage doesn't put less wear and tear on the road.

No. However, heavier vehicles do. So if you want to base it on something, weight would be better than MPG.

[PhillyKev 0]

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No. However, heavier vehicles do.

Not if they're not driven. And heavier vehicles, by design, will use more gas. It makes sense for the tax to be related to how many miles you put on the road. I'm not saying that gasoline usage is the best measure of that, but short of checking everyone's odometer, making sure it wasn't tampered with, and then assessing them with a tax, it seems like a reasonable method.

I also think there should be tax breaks for using fuel conserving vehicles, but that's a separate issue. Assuming there is not tax incentive for high mileage vehicles, then in order to tax equitably related to road usage, this policy makes sense.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

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No. However, heavier vehicles do.

Not if they're not driven. And heavier vehicles, by design, will use more gas. It makes sense for the tax to be related to how many miles you put on the road. I'm not saying that gasoline usage is the best measure of that, but short of checking everyone's odometer, making sure it wasn't tampered with, and then assessing them with a tax, it seems like a reasonable method.

Weight is far more important. 5000 miles on a 7000lb SUV does far more wear than 50,000 miles on a 600lb motorcycle. A hybrid gets the same or better mileage than my boxer, but it definitely puts more wear - it weighs 5 times more.

If you want to tax on usage, you do it via a gas tax at the pump. CA does that to the tune of 18cents per gallon, plus sales tax on everything (figure about 16cents more). And it charges a minor amount on registration fees for pickups, but only if they don't have a cab in back.

[kallend 2,150]

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>Getting good gas mileage doesn't put less wear and tear on the road.

No. However, heavier vehicles do. So if you want to base it on something, weight would be better than MPG.

Research shows that road wear and tear goes with the CUBE of the axle weight and linearly with miles driven and number of axles.

So a gas tax undercharges heavy vehicles. Especially big trucks.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.