I was only following orders

[quade 4]

Explainer

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The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[pajarito 0]

I didn't read this article. I'm just commenting on what I've seen so far. I think they're full of shit. MP's know the letter of the law concerning Rules of Engagement in theatre and the Geneva Convention better than anyone out there. It's their job to know because they handle prisoners for a living. The bit about them not being briefed is BS too. I've never been deployed to a combat zone without having been being briefed on what I could and could not do concerning ROE or the Geneva Convention. All of that is irrelevant in this case, however, because any reasonable person should know that what they did was illegal. Briefed on the rules of the Geneva Convention or not. Even if they were ordered to do it. It is their duty to not follow those illegal orders and they should be held accountable.

[sdgregory 0]

I agree. If they did not know that what they were doing was wrong then I question their judgement and their ability to serve with said judgement.

But I cannot for one second believe they did not know that was wrong. They should be held accountable for their actions.


This is just another case of I did wrong, got caught and want to put the blame elsewhere so I do not have to suffer the consequences of my own actions.

I hope these disgraceful persons are severly punished.

[quade 4]

I also find it inconceivable that no matter what level of experience they had or what jobs they held outside of the military that they would not have been briefed for this particular situation.

Are they being used as scapegoats? Well, yes, but they're still guilty as hell.

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The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[sdgregory 0]

Can they really be called scapegoats? They did the crime. Then they photographed themselves doing the crime. And they certainly did not look like guys following orders they did not want to follow. If I am told to do something I do not want to do but feel I have to I am going to be mumbling and grumbling the whole way. Not saying "Woohoo look at me! Hey, Bobby, grab that camera!"

They are not scapegoats.

[pajarito 0]

  Quote

I also find it inconceivable that no matter what level of experience they had or what jobs they held outside of the military that they would not have been briefed for this particular situation.

Are they being used as scapegoats? Well, yes, but they're still guilty as hell.

I really hope that not just a couple of PFC's and a Specialist take the rap for this and that they are, in fact, the scapegoats. I think their immediate supervisors should get more than repremands too. I think there should be harsh punishments for all involved. If the CIA had a hand in telling the soldiers to do what they did, even though they shouldn't have followed the instructions, they should be dealt with harshly as well. I do not think that Donal Rumsfeld should resign for this. I don't think he's responsible in that way. Sure, he's responsible overall for those under him but I believe that he's responsible in the way as to make sure that punishment happens and that it doesn't happen again. Establish policy and make sure that the policy is carried out appropriately.

[quade 4]

Yes, they posed in the photos -- no question.

The question is, -why- they posed in the photos.

Were they, in fact, just following orders to soften up the prisoners for questioning or where they rogue agents acting out some sick and twisted sadistic fantasy.

If they were rogue agents, then they really fucked up.

If they were in fact following orders to soften up the prisoners this way, then yes, they are still scumbags for not refusing an illegal order, but their superiors are using them as scapegoats to try to defuse their own actions.

I'm not totally convinced either way, but just looking at the photos I've seen so far, it appears to me that this was, unfortunately, simply a humiliation exercise to get the prisoners softened up for interrogation.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[misskriss 0]

The fact is what happened was terribly wrong. It doesn't take a genious to realize that it's not the right thing to do. Many heads should roll for this.. the excuse that they were only following orders is bullshit. However, this behavior is not that surprising. Sometimes you take people who have less than stellar backgrounds.. and by that I mean-- not raised properly, no role models, and used the military as an escape , etc..... then they are put in a position of power over prisoners and for the first time in their life feel in control of sorts. Abuse happens in prisons all over America on a regular basis for the same reasons. It's sad and it's sick but it happens. I think that publishing these photos was a gigantic catostrophe because it only puts our soldiers at risk when they are held captive.

[wmw999 2,560]

Well put. I agree with you right down the line.
Um -- on this post
Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Gravitymaster 0]

John Kerry said he didn't know free fire zones were illegal or burning down the homes of innocent non-combatants was against the Geneva Convention. If you believe these soldiers did in fact know their acts were illegal, how can you reasonably conclude Kerry didn't know?

[mujie96 0]

I don't give a damn who thought they were following orders.
I don't give a damn what kind of childhood they had. My parents were abusive or absent and I comprehend the difference between right and wrong.

I don't care how any other country treats our soldiers.
This is America and what sets us apart from every other country on the planet is the the fact that we do not sink to their level.

I read a paper with lots of gory details yesterday, the first I've really looked at since I left the military and I wanted to vomit. I really, truly hope that the information we are getting is the product of typical American media manipulation but somehow I don't think this is the case.

"We never received training on POW handling/interrogation/Geneva Convention" is the most pathetic attempt at an excuse I've ever heard.

I will not pass judgement on anyone because its certainly not my place to do so but I've got to say that if the quoted speech of that female MP were meant to enrage, inflame, and disgust me they worked. I've never wanted to go find a recruiter and beg, kick, and scream for a waiver before.

Just keep swimming...just keep swimming....

[quade 4]

This might actually be a first.

I think everyone I've heard from so far on the subject is in agreement that "I was just following orders" is an unacceptable excuse.

This is, can not be really, a case of media manipulation. At a very basic level the photos speak for themselves. What I fear is what has not yet been shown. As unfortunate as those photos and .avi files might be, no matter how damaging they are to our efforts, they absolutely -must- be released. To do otherwise will only smack of cover up.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[jakee 1,571]

From the article,

  Quote

In fact, military law has long recognized that following orders is a legitimate defense — but not if an order was illegal or if “a person of ordinary sense and understanding would have known it was illegal.”

Can anyone see the sense in this statement?
I can't see how an order that directs troops to commit illegal acts could itself be legal.
If they had been following a legal order then they wouldn't have done anything wrong, if they were following an illegal order then they've got no defense.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 3,090]

>If they had been following a legal order then they wouldn't have
> done anything wrong, if they were following an illegal order then
> they've got no defense.

You are carrying a heavy weapon. You hustle to a firefight, find shelter behind a wall and get an order to fire on a house. Is the order legal or illegal? What do you do?

Military personnel often do not have the luxury of checking the house first to see if there are civilians in it. Their superiors have the responsibility to ensure the order is legal, because 99% of the time their subordinates will carry it out as they have been trained to do.

[Skyrad 0]

Its a shame that people like these have tarnished the image of soldiers like you in the eyes of the world.
(and I don't mean that in an insulting way)

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[jakee 1,571]

  Quote

You are carrying a heavy weapon. You hustle to a firefight, find shelter behind a wall and get an order to fire on a house. Is the order legal or illegal? What do you do?

I would imagine that comes under the heading of collateral damage not war crimes.

Don't get me wrong, I understand that the reality of war involves killing people, my post was refering to the prisoner abuse stories, rather than any battlefield situation.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[bhammond 0]

First,
I don't want anyone to think that in any way I condone these acts, (not torture but but more sub-human treatment ) I am not making a excuse but more of a thinking point of how we may have gotten here.

flash back to the early 1990's and the fall of the soviet empire...

the subject of the day was piece dividend, cut military, cut CIA

bending to political pressure the military and CIA had their budgets cut

back to post 9/11 being blind sided by lack of intel ( partially due to CIA budget cut)

we went to war and had to rely on reserve units ....

a great percentage of them did a excellent job, one did not,

[pajarito 0]

  Quote

Well put. I agree with you right down the line.
Um -- on this post
Wendy W.

Careful...you might get labeled something if you agree with me too much. What would people think?

[pajarito 0]

  Quote

Its a shame that people like these have tarnished the image of soldiers like you in the eyes of the world.
(and I don't mean that in an insulting way)

It is a shame. But we are all human and make mistakes. I'm quite sure the US and Great Britain will persevere and bring themselves out of the hole....eventually. This one will hurt a lot, though, and may take a long time to recover. It really needs to be demonstrated to the world that this kind of thing will not be tolerated by us. Even if others do much worse. We're better than that.

[kallend 2,117]

  Quote

"We never received training on POW handling/interrogation/Geneva Convention" is the most pathetic attempt at an excuse I've ever heard.

.

According to the report by Maj. Gen. Taguba, the enlisted troops had not been properly trained or briefed. That is the fault of the officers.

Rumsfeld had a report of abuses on his desk for months and did nothing to improve things until the press leaked the story.

The Red Cross had reported on the abuses to Bremmer and Sanchez too, with no action taken.

This goes right to the top.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Kennedy 0]

  Quote

I was only following orders

But isn't that Kerry's excuse, and you seem to think he's ok.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[quade 4]

I think we'd both need to research what Mr. Kerry said and did and what he orders said and did before drawing any conclusion.

I haven't had the time this week to follow up on some allegations about Mr. Kerry, but I have a feeling they're mostly a bogus twisting of what he's actually said.

You don't have anything solid I can look at -- do you?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Kennedy 0]

I had a page with Kerry's testimony, but I lost it when this damn thing froze up on me. Haven't found it again, yet.

Mostly I was just going off billvon's theory in another thread the superiors justified it or didn't say it was wrong, and his peers were doing it, so it was ok.

Honestly I don't have a problem with any of the pictures except that the idiots were taking ictures. I have issues with the physical stuff (deaths, broomstick allegation), but that was being addressed quietly before the story broke.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[quade 4]

  Quote

Honestly I don't have a problem with any of the pictures except that the idiots were taking ictures.

Are you convinced, one way or the other, whether this was a group of rogue individuals after hours or that -maybe- this was directed intentionally in an attempt to soften the prisoners for interrogation?

At first the photos look like rogue individuals acting like total assholes, but if you look at them in light of humiliating the prisoners before interrogation, I can also believe the photos used in that light to get to the prisoners -- showing them how powerless they are. Think about it . . . why a naken prisoner being lead on a leash by a woman guard? Isn't that just about the -most- humiliating thing for an Arab man?

I'm -almost- (not quite but getting damn close to it) convinced that this was all directed by the CIA and their "contractors".

Links to CACI were one of the first things I posted April 30 when I first heard of the photos. It's amazing to me that it's taken this long for the rest of the press to begin to understand what may have actually been going on. Much of the main stream press still doesn't understand what may have been going on and, so it follows, even fewer of the viewers.

So, in summary, if they're just a few sicko guards . . . it sucks but let's move on. If on the other hand it was government policy, I think even more heads are going to roll and I really don't see how Rummy gets off clean -- maybe even GWB.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Kennedy 0]

See, there's the thing, I have no issue with humilation, sleep deprivation, etc before interrogation. That's how you get the information you need.

If it was a bunch of whackjobs being stupid, court martial them and get on with it. If it they wre directed to do it, then let's just tell the public that, say 'this is what we do in war, and if you don't like it screw off.' If it was policy, then the only reason I think head should roll is because they are hanging the guard out to dry. If they were being stupid and unproductive (aka F-ing sickos) then toss em in Leavenworth.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*