Iraq Prisoner Abuse: The Other Side of the Story

[Guest]

Here's the unemotional, factual take on the situation in the Iraq prisons, and a prediction about what the fallout will be, based upon historical perspective.

They should have kept the cameras away.

mh

May 10, 2004: The current Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal developed last year because troops in Iraq were under tremendous pressure to find and arrest the Baath Party groups that were terrorizing Iraqis and attacking coalition troops. The methods used (humiliation and demoralization, for the most part, although the more effective sleep deprivation was more common) are not considered torture in the classic sense, as they do not involve physical harm. It's been known for over a year that these methods were being used at Guantanamo, and elsewhere. This was widely reported and discussed in the media. Saddam's methods were rather more violent. You can easily buy videos of Saddam era torture sessions in Baghdad. Very ugly stuff. Without the photos of the US soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners, there would have been no media frenzy.

Some of the prisoner abuse by American troops was physical, and that’s what caused the most indignation in the U.S. There’s a historical reason for that. When the United States was founded, physical torture was quite common throughout the world. Many of the people who fled to America did so to avoid physical torture. So the US basic law specifically outlawed "cruel and unusual punishment." But there was still a need to extract information (often life or death information) from uncooperative prisoners. There developed a body of techniques that relied on psychological pressure. Physical abuse still occurs (as it does everywhere), but it is illegal and regularly punished.


The abuse in Iraq occurred because at some point in the chain of command, there was a breakdown of control, and some illegal acts were allowed to be committed. Even before this story broke, several officers had already been relieved of command, and there investigations of underway for other officers, NCOs and troops. However, it appears that many officers were punished for bad judgment while "trying too hard," and not for criminal acts (which, under American law, requires "criminal intent.")

Much was made of the fact that some of the soldiers involved were not well enough prepared for their duty as prison guards. Military historians were shocked, shocked to hear this. Imagine there being a war where some soldiers were sent forth were "unprepared?" Unfortunately, it’s very common. What’s uncommon about the Iraq experience is the extent to which special training programs were established, in the United States and Iraq, to rectify this common situation. This is not considered news and gets little coverage.

Other aspects that get little coverage include the fact that most of Iraq has been at peace through all of this. Moreover, you have many Iraqi Shia and Kurds who see these pictures and react quite differently. The Shia and Kurds not only understand that the prisoners are suspected Baath Party members, but will often comment that they should "all be killed." Eventually, an elected Iraqi government is going to have to take care of the anti-government (mainly Sunni Arab) violence. An Iraqi government dominated by Shia and Kurds, with memories of millions of their kinsmen murdered, tortured or otherwise abused by the Sunni Arabs, will have to muster enormous restraint to avoid much uglier incidents of violence against prisoners. The US wants to hold the elections, and let the Iraqis sort it out themselves. But there is some unease about what the Shia and Kurds will do to these still violent Sunnis.

The one result of all this media uproar is that U.S. interrogation methods will become less forceful, and less effective. So this Summer there will be news stories of ineffective interrogations leading to avoidable combat deaths of American troops. Unfortunately, this is an old pattern in American politics and its relationship with the media and the military. There are similar examples going back 150 years (to before the American Civil War.) But the media has no memory, particularly when it comes to their own abuses.

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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Skyrad 0]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/tm_objectid=14226216%26method=full%26siteid=50143%26headline=new%2dpow%2dtorture%2dclaims%2drock%2dcoalition-name_page.html

Its not suprising that people get emotional. WTF is going on? People guilty need jail time not dishonorable discharges. Its the very least that needs doing if the coalition is going to attempt to regain the moral high ground.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[billvon 3,131]

>The one result of all this media uproar is that U.S. interrogation
> methods will become less forceful, and less effective. So this
> Summer there will be news stories of ineffective interrogations
> leading to avoidable combat deaths of American troops.

I agree. If we put Saddam in charge of our Iraqi prisons, combat deaths of US troops would drop. We decided before the war started that we wanted to free Iraqis from that kind of abuse, though, and it's too late to decide that we are now unwilling to pay the price.

A LOT of US troops will die over the next ten years in Iraq. It is too late to decide we don't want that to happen. The decision was made as soon as we invaded.

> But the media has no memory, particularly when it comes to their
> own abuses.

The media is driven by what people want to see and read about. If no one cared about Iraqis being tortured, those pictures would only have appeared on some lunatic's web site. The alternative - having a media that supresses news that they think is too sensitive or too politically damaging to a candidate, a war or a country - is too scary to contemplate.

There were three investigations into the Iraq prisoner abuses before the story broke. And it wasn't getting fixed. Of two murders, one perpetrator was demoted and kicked out, and the other (a contractor) got off scot-free. Once the pictures came out, there was a public outcry and the problem was quickly taken seriously. If those pictures can prevent that sort of torture, murder and rape, then they will have been worth it.

[Guest]

In my commentary, I didn't say that prisoner abuse was right. Furthermore, there are ways of getting information from people, but it involves being clever, and is time-consuming. When the information that could prevent deaths is locked in a raghead's skull, I can understand the desire to forcibly extract it.

And I've said it before: Soldiers <> cops, cops <> soldiers. The rules that bind the one couldn't and shouldn't be applied to the other, and vice-versa.

However, the Geneva Convention is pretty clear, and we can't claim to hold the moral high ground if we aren't respecting international law and fundamental human rights.


mh

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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[jakee 1,608]

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Without the photos of the US soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners, there would have been no media frenzy.

Well duh!

Seriously though, if a newspaper writes an article claiming that abuse is going on people who don't want to believe it wont believe it. Show a photo of the abuse and then it's much more difficult to claim it's false.

Besides,

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They should have kept the cameras away.

I hope I'm not the only one who thinks that should read 'They shouldn't have done it'.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Guest]

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Quote

Without the photos of the US soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners, there would have been no media frenzy.

Well duh!

Seriously though, if a newspaper writes an article claiming that abuse is going on people who don't want to believe it wont believe it. Show a photo of the abuse and then it's much more difficult to claim it's false.

Besides,

Quote

They should have kept the cameras away.

I hope I'm not the only one who thinks that should read 'They shouldn't have done it'.

As I've mentioned, the troops were under enormous pressure to obtain timely information. It doesn't excuse their conduct, but it helps to understand what's being done over there in our name....

...c'est la guerre.

mh

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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[PhillyKev 0]

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The one result of all this media uproar is that U.S. interrogation methods will become less forceful, and less effective. So this Summer there will be news stories of ineffective interrogations leading to avoidable combat deaths of American troops.

Ahhh, if only we could have the low crime rates and peaceful populations that thrived in the Soviet Union.

[piisfish 140]

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As I've mentioned, the troops were under enormous pressure to obtain timely information. It doesn't excuse their conduct, but it helps to understand what's being done over there in our name....

...c'est la guerre.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[tkhayes 348]

"The one result of all this media uproar is that U.S. interrogation methods will become less forceful, and less effective. So this Summer there will be news stories of ineffective interrogations leading to avoidable combat deaths of American troops. Unfortunately, this is an old pattern in American politics and its relationship with the media and the military. There are similar examples going back 150 years (to before the American Civil War.) But the media has no memory, particularly when it comes to their own abuses"

it's pretty lame an arguement to say that this will result in US deaths. THat is akin to saying that Martin Luther King directly caused US deaths in Vietnam, just because he protested the war here at home.

How about saving US soldiers' lives by not having them there in the first place? I think that would be the most effective way of saving their lives. Hard to get shot at when you are not there.

TK

[andybr6 0]

I apologise if i have misunderstood; to me it reads as if you believe that those photos were pictures of prisoner interrorgation when in fact they were photos of prisoner abuse. They have had several interrorgation experts on the TV in the UK [Majors in the army] who have discounted the fact that this was any sort of interrogation. Interrogators do not photograph themselves with their victims as a sick memento. They also say that the photographs do not show any kind of effective method of interrorgation, rather what they show is the abuse of authority and power of those put in charge of the prisoners.

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"All men can fly, but sadly, only in one direction"

[Unutsch 0]

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to me it reads as if you believe that those photos were pictures of prisoner interrogation when in fact they were photos of prisoner abuse.

same here...

and i don't think there can be an excuse for that (no matter how good of a philosopher someone trying to apologize such horrors may be)... it's plane sick, just as the whole anti-terror war is...

Check out the site of the Fallen Angels FreeflY Organisation:
http://www.padliangeli.org

[Guest]

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to me it reads as if you believe that those photos were pictures of prisoner interrogation when in fact they were photos of prisoner abuse.

same here...

and i don't think there can be an excuse for that (no matter how good of a philosopher someone trying to apologize such horrors may be)... it's plane sick, just as the whole anti-terror war is...

Agreed. I was only pointing out that things are seldom as they appear, even when there is photographic evidence of it which in Paul Quade's astute observation, speaks for itself.

mh

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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."