England to Ban Hunting?

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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I think the fact there is a picture with a fox running and a guy on a horse in the article kinda suggests that it is about fox hunting.

Yes, of course,
just like when the news does a story on the "assault weapons ban," and shows a video clip of someone firing a full auto M-16.

Why would you so credulously believe that all that is shown equates to all that is actually involved?

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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So I expect that you've never had a pack of hounds and a dozen horses steaming through your back garden? Personally, "The Hunt" can go fuck themselves.

Two words: barbed wire.

That should keep the horses out.

Actually, I don't understand why fox hunters are allowed to trespass on others private property in pursuit of their game. That wouldn't be allowed in America. What's with that?

Haven't you read the recent story about Madonna and her man in England? The government is saying that people who feel like traipsing across the countryside are free to go galavanting across anyone's "open land," so places like Madonna's estate do not have the right to keep people off.

Madonna is fighting it, but um, she's fighting the government -- who do you think will win?

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[andybr6 0]

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The government is saying that people who feel like traipsing across the countryside are free to go galavanting across anyone's "open land,"

It is normally a lot more complex than that. Much of the English countryside is open to the public due to footpaths that are desiganted for use of the general public. These paths and the laws surrounding them are centuries old; many of them predate the discovery of America. I guess when they were established under the Lords and Barons that owned the land people like Guy Ritchie and Maddona werent around to cause a fuss

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"All men can fly, but sadly, only in one direction"

[christelsabine 1]

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5'6" and weighed 13 stone

what is it converted into mid-European measurements?

Just curious

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[Gawain 0]

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5'6" and weighed 13 stone

what is it converted into mid-European measurements?

Just curious

13 stone is about 180 lbs, or 82 kg...

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[christelsabine 1]

Ooops... exit weight ?

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[jakee 1,608]

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what is it converted into mid-European measurements?

She was too large and the trousers were too tight. I'm now off to have that memory treatment I saw in Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,608]

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Yes, of course,
just like when the news does a story on the "assault weapons ban," and shows a video clip of someone firing a full auto M-16.

Why would you so credulously believe that all that is shown equates to all that is actually involved?

One thing the article may not have told you is that this act has already been passed twice by the house of commons (elected) and blocked twice by the house of lords (nonelected rich gits and political cronies). Pass it one more time in the house of commons and the lords can't stop it.
Anyone in England not living in a cave protesting against a new bypass should be fairly familiar with this already.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,608]

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Haven't you read the recent story about Madonna and her man in England? The government is saying that people who feel like traipsing across the countryside are free to go galavanting across anyone's "open land," so places like Madonna's estate do not have the right to keep people off.

Not so much talking about country estates here. Most farmers and landowners happily let the hunt ride across their land, foxes are pests right?

The point was that if the fox happens to run into your garden (yard if you like) its pretty difficult to stop a large pack of hounds from running in after it and digging up all your plants.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Haven't you read the recent story about Madonna and her man in England? The government is saying that people who feel like traipsing across the countryside are free to go galavanting across anyone's "open land," so places like Madonna's estate do not have the right to keep people off.

Not so much talking about country estates here. Most farmers and landowners happily let the hunt ride across their land, foxes are pests right?

The point was that if the fox happens to run into your garden (yard if you like) its pretty difficult to stop a large pack of hounds from running in after it and digging up all your plants.

Then those responsible should be held legally and financially liable for damage their uncontrollable dogs (and horses) cause.

Just because the dogs can't be stopped from running where they will does not mean that those who set the situation in motion from the start should not be held responsible for what comes of it.

If I were an 85 lb. woman and I went out with a Bull Mastiff that weighed 150 lbs., and it pulled away from me and mauled someone on the street, should I be able to just point out how large and difficult to control the dog is and say, "Meh, what could I do? The dog goes where he wants and bites what he wants."? No, of course not. The law would hold me to account for what my dog did because I am expected to be in control of it.

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[jakee 1,608]

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The law would hold me to account for what my dog did because I am expected to be in control of it.

In this case the law would also require that the offending dog be put down so that it doesnt maul anyone else.
If you can't control your dog it gets taken away, if you can't control your pack of dogs well hey, you can just pay up and go and do it all over again.

To be honest though the property debate isn't really a big factor in arguments for or against hunting, it's mostly moral objections that are cited by the anti hunting league.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[dropoutdave 0]

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In this case the law would also require that the offending dog be put down so that it doesnt maul anyone else.

Unless it's owned by a Royal,

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May Contain Nut traces......

[JohnRich 4]

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Actually, I don't understand why fox hunters are allowed to trespass on others private property in pursuit of their game. That wouldn't be allowed in America. What's with that?

They're not allowed to, however when the pack of hounds is running ahead of the horses its kinda hard to keep them out.

Something tells me your really not very familiar either with fox hunting or this act.

I'm familiar with the traditional British fox hunt. But I've assumed that those occured on private estates and such, and didn't think that they went trampling across the land of others without their permission.

American hunters are not allowed to do that.

[JohnRich 4]

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Actually, I don't understand why fox hunters are allowed to trespass on others private property in pursuit of their game. That wouldn't be allowed in America. What's with that?

Haven't you read the recent story about Madonna and her man in England? The government is saying that people who feel like traipsing across the countryside are free to go galavanting across anyone's "open land," so places like Madonna's estate do not have the right to keep people off.

My understanding of that situation in England is that they don't have a bunch of public parks, the way America has state and national parks. All the land is privately owned. Thus, in order to allow hikers and such to enjoy the outdoors, there is some kind of law that allows outsiders to walk on certain parts of private property, and the private property owners have no say to stop that.

[JohnRich 4]

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The point was that if the fox happens to run into your garden (yard if you like) its pretty difficult to stop a large pack of hounds from running in after it and digging up all your plants.

Isn't the owner of the hounds then liable for all damages?

Oops, never mind - I saw further down that this has already been addressed.

I think some restitution and fines should suffice to make the fox hunters more respectful of this problem. But I don't see it as a reason to shut down hunting all together.

[juanesky 0]

Nope that is why it is called "great" Britain.

Not only that you can't even use a hand gun to killed the beasts

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[jakee 1,608]

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But I've assumed that those occured on private estates and such, and didn't think that they went trampling across the land of others without their permission.

Basically the main defense of the hunt in England (besides tradition) is that the fox is a pest and the numbers should be kept down, therefore pretty much every farmer in the country permits the hunt to operate on their land.

The riders themselves wont intentionally tresspass bu like I said, with a pack of hounds running free then occasionally they are going to end up on the wrong side of the fence. Sometimes that fence leads to someones garden, doesn't happen very often but it can cause a lot of damage when it does.
Never underestimate the British obsession with gardening

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,608]

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My understanding of that situation in England is that they don't have a bunch of public parks, the way America has state and national parks. All the land is privately owned. Thus, in order to allow hikers and such to enjoy the outdoors, there is some kind of law that allows outsiders to walk on certain parts of private property, and the private property owners have no say to stop that.

We do have some national parks but they are not really the same as US national parks, people still live and farm on them etc.
What we do have are footpaths, bridleways and greenlanes, on which any member of the public can walk, ride, drive or all three. It's an incredibly widespread network which pretty much allows you to walk point to point any where in the countryside.
Most farmers don't mind too much as long as you don't trample the crops or leave the gates open.
But like I said farmers usually allow the hunt on their land anyway so it's not really relevant.

Anyway the main objection most anti hunt campaigners have is the way the fox is killed when the hounds catch it.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[mr2mk1g 10]

Let me condense the argument here as there seems to be a little confusion.

Overall people are not too worried about the trespass that goes on during a traditional English hunt – its simply not the issue. The hunt does not exactly go straight through people’s back yards but some trespass can happen. Legally the hunt is financially liable for just being there, and also for any damage they cause.

The main point of the “ban foxhunting” argument is the moral one based on the way the fox is killed. The pro-ban people usually (there are always going to be some hardliners) accept the fact that the fox is a predator who’s numbers need to be controlled through culls or hunting. The thing they do not like is the way the hunt terrorises the fox for several miles before cornering it whereupon the toffs on horse back all stand round and watch the pack rip the fox into several pieces and proceed to fight over the pickings.

The main argument is therefore the inhumane way in which the fox is slowly killed by a pack of dogs – you’ve seen a dog kill before right? It doesn’t often just kill, it likes to play with its food in the process… add a pack and you also add the element of fighting over the food too.

There have been proposals to allow the hunt to continue but prevent the final kill or to simply shoot the fox somehow once it’s caught. The remaining proposal is to allow drag hunts where hounds follow a prepared scent trail. All sides mostly acknowledge that the killing of foxes with rifles or poison (etc) will need to continue.

I hope that’s a satisfactory synopsis.

[Ripple 0]

Just to clear up some inaccuracies:

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FYI I think the article relates only to fox hunting. I dont know if you have that in the states so i am sorry if this sounds patronising; basicaly a lot of people on horses chase after a fox that has been released ahead of them.

The fox is not 'released'. To say so implies that the fox was captured to start with, this is not true.

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All fox holes are blocked up so the fox cant hide.

This is not usual.

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The horsemen/women then pursue the fox with a pack of bloodhounds.

They are not blood hounds, they are fox hounds. Entirely different breed.

Also, to contradict some myths about fox-hunting, in a hunt the fox is killed very quickly, it is in the hounds best interests to do so as a fox will (if given the chance) defend itself, and so cause injury to the hounds.

Foxes are pests because they surplus kill - if a fox is presented with an abundance of prey, it will kill what it can and then cache what it cannot eat to save for leaner times.

Killing foxes creates vacant territory which another fox will soon take over. Therefore culling is usually inaffective, by whatever means.

Lastly, I think that fox hunting is essentially quite boring. Being cold, wet and tired, and sat on a cold, wet, tired horse waiting for something to happen is dull.

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[andybr6 0]

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The fox is not 'released'. To say so implies that the fox was captured to start with, this is not true.

I saw a documentary where the fox was captured the night before and released ahead of the back. I think some rags that were in the cage with the fox were given to the dogs so they could get the scent. The docu' then showed the fox holes being blocked up. I have never been on a fox hunt so maybe what i saw was the exception rather than the rule.

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They are not blood hounds, they are fox hounds. Entirely different breed.

Unless fox hounds have no teeth and desire to kill i see no point in quibbling over what breed of hound is used. They could chase after it with a pack of poodles for all i care.

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Also, to contradict some myths about fox-hunting, in a hunt the fox is killed very quickly, it is in the hounds best interests to do so as a fox will (if given the chance) defend itself, and so cause injury to the hounds.

Foxes are pests because they surplus kill - if a fox is presented with an abundance of prey, it will kill what it can and then cache what it cannot eat to save for leaner times

Maybe when the fox is finally killed it is quicj and painless but there are far more effective and humane ways than pursuing it for miles before it is too exhausted to run anymore.

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"All men can fly, but sadly, only in one direction"

[Ripple 0]

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I saw a documentary where the fox was captured the night before and released ahead of the back. I think some rags that were in the cage with the fox were given to the dogs so they could get the scent. The docu' then showed the fox holes being blocked up. I have never been on a fox hunt so maybe what i saw was the exception rather than the rule.

Ok.

Edited to add:

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The MFHA sets out three 'golden rules' for anyone who hunts:

Foxhunting as a sport is the hunting of the fox in its wild and natural state with a pack of hounds. Nothing must be done which in any way compromises this rule.

I think the digging you may be referring to is the terrier work:

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Terrier work is no part of the enjoyment of the sport and


Terrier work is no part of the enjoyment of foxhunting, but it plays an important role in fox control.
Digging may only take place with the expressed permission of the landowner or farmer. MFHA Rules state that when a fox is run to ground there shall be no digging other than for the purpose of humanely destroying the fox.
Terrier work can only be carried out by those licensed by the MFHA. The terrierman will normally be accompanied by one assistant only. Due to the possible use of a humane killer, and to avoid unnecessary noise and disturbance, participation is limited to the terrierman and his assistant with sometimes the presence of the relevant farmer or gamekeeper.

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Unless fox hounds have no teeth and desire to kill i see no point in quibbling over what breed of hound is used. They could chase after it with a pack of poodles for all i care.

I'm not really bothered either, just wanted to be accurate.

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Maybe when the fox is finally killed it is quicj and painless but there are far more effective and humane ways than pursuing it for miles before it is too exhausted to run anymore.

You seem to think that I am sticking up for fox hunting. I'm not, infact I actually stated, perhaps not explicitly enough, that culling foxes, by whatever means is not effective.

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[andybr6 0]

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You seem to think that I am sticking up for fox hunting. I'm not, infact I actually stated, perhaps not explicitly enough, that culling foxes, by whatever means is not effective.

Ok. I think i focused on the parts of your post that was a reply to mine and i got the impression that you were in defence of fox hunting. I apologise if i got the wrong impression but i do find fox hunting a pretty horrible sport. As you point out [once i re-read your post] there is actualy no real way of justifying it in conservation terms.

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"All men can fly, but sadly, only in one direction"

[Ripple 0]

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Ok. I think i focused on the parts of your post that was a reply to mine and i got the impression that you were in defence of fox hunting. I apologise if i got the wrong impression

You did, and I accept.

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but i do find fox hunting a pretty horrible sport.

I have to admit to finding it no worse than other sports such as shooting animals (whether they're eaten or not). But that's just me.

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As you point out [once i re-read your post] there is actualy no real way of justifying it in conservation terms.

Or any other terms, come to that.

People often use the excuse that to ban hunting would engender the loss of jobs, the killing of hounds etc. etc. Drag hunting would solve all of these problems, and it has the added bonus of not having to hang around for hours waiting for something to happen!

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[jakee 1,608]

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They could chase after it with a pack of poodles for all i care.

Poodles actually are hunting dogs. One of the most keenly developed senses of smell of any breed. Stupid little pouffed up toy poodles really have ruined their image.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?