The Catholic Church and Capital Punishment

[kallend 2,174]

Vinny, please enlighten us.

What is the position of the US conference of bishops?

What is the position of the Vatican?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Nightingale 0]

Answer by Fr. Stephen F. Torraco on 11- 15 -2000:(EWTN.com)

It is unfortunate that in recent times the Church's teaching on capital punishment has been presented so unclearly, both by members of the Church as well as of the media and other sectors of society. The Church's teaching on this matter is governed primarily by the natural law, and secondly by the principle of double effect. The Church's teaching on this subject remains fundamentally the same.

The Church has always taught that it is the right and responsibility of the legitimate temporal authority to defend and preserve the common good, and more specifically to defend citizens against the aggressor. This defense against the aggressor, by virtue of the principle of double effect, can resort to the death penalty. The point here is that the death penalty is understood as an act of self-defense on the part of civil society. In more recent times, Pope John Paul II has taught that the need for such self-defense to resort to the death penalty is "rare, if not virtually nonexistent." The important point here is that the Pope has not, as he cannot, change the constant and fundamental teaching of the Church on this matter, based as it is on the natural law, namely that it is the right and responsibility of the legitimate temporal authority to defend citizens against the aggressor.

What the Pope IS saying is that, in modern society, the modern penal system, along with an intense anti-life culture, makes resorting to the death penalty *disproportionate* to the threatening aggression. (According to the 4th criterion of the principle of double effect, the unintended evil effect of the act of self-defense has to be proportionate to the intended good effect of that act.) Thus, while the Pope is saying that the burden of proving the need for the death penalty in specific cases should rest on the shoulders of the legitimate temporal authority, it remains true that the legitimate temporal authority alone has the authority to determine if and when a "rare" case arises that warrants the death penalty. It would, by the standards of the natural law and the principle of double effect, be morally irresponsible to rule out all such possibilities a priori, just as it would be morally irresponsible to apply the death penalty indiscriminately. For these reasons, the Church cannot possibly embrace EITHER a totally PRO-capital punishment teaching OR a totally ANTI-capital punishment teaching.

[Tonto 1]

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For these reasons, the Church cannot possibly embrace EITHER a totally PRO-capital punishment teaching OR a totally ANTI-capital punishment teaching.

Did I read all that to find out they're sitting on the fence?

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Red_Skydiver 0]

From reading the New Testament I was under the impression that to kill was wrong, in any circumstance. However I was baptised and confirmed a Catholic and I have to say I haven't a clue what the Catholic church stands for anymore. What I was taught about the religion as a child suddenly got thrown out of the window when I became an adult resulting in me being totally confused and turning my back on it all. If the church can't make up it's mind what it believes how do they expect us to follow them?

[nightjumps 1]

Kenneth C. Jones of St. Louis has pulled together a slim volume of statistics he has titled Index of Leading Catholic Indicators: The Church Since Vatican II.

Priests. While the number of priests in the United States more than doubled to 58,000, between 1930 and 1965, since then that number has fallen to 45,000. By 2020, there will be only 31,000 priests left, and more than half of these priests will be over 70.

Ordinations. In 1965, 1,575 new priests were ordained in the United States. In 2002, the number was 450. In 1965, only 1 percent of U.S. parishes were without a priest. Today, there are 3,000 priestless parishes, 15 percent of all U.S. parishes.

Seminarians. Between 1965 and 2002, the number of seminarians dropped from 49,000 to 4,700, a decline of over 90 percent. Two-thirds of the 600 seminaries that were operating in 1965 have now closed.

Sisters. In 1965, there were 180,000 Catholic nuns. By 2002, that had fallen to 75,000 and the average age of a Catholic nun is today 68. In 1965, there were 104,000 teaching nuns. Today, there are 8,200, a decline of 94 percent since the end of Vatican II.

Religious Orders. For religious orders in America, the end is in sight. In 1965, 3,559 young men were studying to become Jesuit priests. In 2000, the figure was 389. With the Christian Brothers, the situation is even more dire. Their number has shrunk by two-thirds, with the number of seminarians falling 99 percent. In 1965, there were 912 seminarians in the Christian Brothers. In 2000, there were only seven. The number of young men studying to become Franciscan and Redemptorist priests fell from 3,379 in 1965 to 84 in 2000.

Catholic schools. Almost half of all Catholic high schools in the United States have closed since 1965. The student population has fallen from 700,000 to 386,000. Parochial schools suffered an even greater decline. Some 4,000 have disappeared, and the number of pupils attending has fallen below 2 million – from 4.5 million.
Though the number of U.S. Catholics has risen by 20 million since 1965, Jones' statistics show that the power of Catholic belief and devotion to the Faith are not nearly what they were.


Catholic Marriage. Catholic marriages have fallen in number by one-third since 1965, while the annual number of annulments has soared from 338 in 1968 to 50,000 in 2002.

Attendance at Mass. A 1958 Gallup Poll reported that three in four Catholics attended church on Sundays. A recent study by the University of Notre Dame found that only one in four now attend.

Only 10 percent of lay religious teachers now accept church teaching on contraception. Fifty-three percent believe a Catholic can have an abortion and remain a good Catholic. Sixty-five percent believe that Catholics may divorce and remarry. Seventy-seven percent believe one can be a good Catholic without going to mass on Sundays. By one New York Times poll, 70 percent of all Catholics in the age group 18 to 44 believe the Eucharist is merely a "symbolic reminder" of Jesus.

Source: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29948

[kallend 2,174]

So what is the position of the US conference of bishops?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Deuce 1]

I get the feeling here that you're trying to pin Vinny down with something you already know.

So just tell us.

The Church is a gigantic multicultural bureaucracy. Why would anybody be surprised that it contains a multitude of contradictions.

The question that always occurs to me is why folks, apparently folks like you, get such a rush pointing out that Catholics belong to a church where a fraction of its leaders are criminals and hypocrites.

What large organization doesn't have a percentage of criminals and hypocrites?

That is no reason not to strive for the ideal.

[Nightingale 0]

if you're that curious, I'm sure you can google it yourself.

[kallend 2,174]

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if you're that curious, I'm sure you can google it yourself.

Vinny said (in another thread) that if I started a thread on this subject, he would enlighten me.

So I have.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Gawain 0]

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if you're that curious, I'm sure you can google it yourself.

Vinny said (in another thread) that if I started a thread on this subject, he would enlighten me.

So I have.

Ahhh...trolling! Excellent. What will you do with the enlightenment once you find it?

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[kallend 2,174]

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if you're that curious, I'm sure you can google it yourself.

Vinny said (in another thread) that if I started a thread on this subject, he would enlighten me.

So I have.

Ahhh...trolling! Excellent. What will you do with the enlightenment once you find it?

Has anyone else noticed how the "conservatives" avoid answering difficult questions by claiming they are off topic in one thread, but when, in response, a thread is started on that topic, they cry "Troll".

Pretty poor show if you ask me.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Gawain 0]

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if you're that curious, I'm sure you can google it yourself.

Vinny said (in another thread) that if I started a thread on this subject, he would enlighten me.

So I have.

Ahhh...trolling! Excellent. What will you do with the enlightenment once you find it?

Has anyone else noticed how the "conservatives" avoid answering difficult questions by claiming they are off topic in one thread, but when, in response, a thread is started on that topic, they cry "Troll".

Pretty poor show if you ask me.

I was just ribbing you...what part of the did you miss? Sheesh...besides, I couldn't care less about the Church's position on capital punishment.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[TheAnvil 0]

My dearest Kallend -

I find myself simultaneously delighted, perturbed, flattered, and puzzled at your invitation to discuss the Catholic Church and Capital Punishment. Excellent idea - stemming from PhillyKev's recent thread I am sure.

I'm flattered that you've asked me for enlightenment, yet puzzled in the manner you've chosen to do so - querying me for knowledge you no doubt already possess. Quite odd.

I'm also puzzled by the fact that you ask for enlightenment when I never offered such to you (though I'll gladly give it). If you took my previous prose as some sort of gauntlet to pick up in the Medieval sense, you've picked up what was not offered.

I'm perturbed because I'm currently on travel and only log on once a day or so - for brief periods. I now await upon a dz.com maiden who is enroute to my hotel to show me the local environs. Given that it's Cinco de Mayo and my reknowned penchant for tequila, I doubt I'll log on again today. T'will most likely be tomorrow evening before I log on again.

Despite the aforementioned, I'm delighted to debate this with you. Since you already know the answers to the questions you asked, I'll not waste your time by answering them (unless you so desire). The Pope occupies the Chair of Peter - not any of the American bishops - and it is John Paul II that sets policy - which, as I pointed out to you in the other thread, does NOT expressly forbid (unlike abortion/euthanasia). The points you desired to make are truly non-sequitur to the issue in Philly's thread, but definitely germane to any discussion of the Church and the death penalty.

I was reading Aquinas the other day whilst on travel (Summa Theologica) and found his arguments on the issue quite interesting. I only read it because the dude on the flight was doing so (a philosophy major from UCLA or USC; I forget) and it piqued my interest as I hadn't read it in years, but did happen across the passage while skimming it. I'm sure you, like me until recently, haven't read Aquinas in years, but since you're a professor I'm sure one of your colleagues can point you in the direction of the passage. Quite interesting.

Eager to hear what you actually want to discuss. Chat with you tomorrow herein.

beers to all,

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[kallend 2,174]

Aquinas was an interesting guy, but let's not forget that in his time (and for several hundred years after) the Church was still in the business of burning heretics at the stake. So I'd not take his views as representative of the modern Church.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Deuce 1]

Kallend, they were also in the business of making beer and spirits, not just burning heretics at the stake. The margins on heretic burning were really not quite enough to build cathedrals.

Crusades, however.... Good money in Crusading.

[kallend 2,174]

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Kallend, they were also in the business of making beer and spirits, not just burning heretics at the stake. The margins on heretic burning were really not quite enough to build cathedrals.

Crusades, however.... Good money in Crusading.

Every cloud has a silver lining

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Muenkel 0]

Kallend,

Aquinas really is known as St. Thomas the Aquinas. He is considered to be one of the greatest Catholic theologions, whom most Catholics revere.

I'm curious, since you despise the Catholic Church so much (I've deduced this by reading between the lines of your many threads), what do you care how they stand on Capital punishment?

If you genuinely cared about the Catholic faith, I think you would find some Catholics who would be willing to enlighten you. Unfortunately, you seem to be coming across as trolling.

_________________________________________
Chris

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"Crusades, however.... Good money in Crusading.!

The Knights Templar are a good example of early corporate globalisation.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[jakee 1,608]

I can't stand the Cathlic church, I'll openly admit that. To me their only redeeming feature is that they paid for some pretty nice architecture in their day.

However as long as they keep wildly throwing their political weight around on any subject remotely involving ethics then their views on capital punishment/abortion/birth control etc. do concern and I'm interested in knowing what they are.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[PhillyKev 0]

Do you talk like this in real life?

[Deuce 1]

That John Paul II is a total wildman.

NacMac: It's the fulcrum of the pentaverate. You know, the secret incredient that makes you crave it fortnightly.

"The Colonel, with his wee beady eyes....."

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Deuce, you provide a welcome sense of humour in an otherwise fun free forum.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[TheAnvil 0]

The Church's many many wrongdoings throughout history - not merely during the inquisition - don't really have much bearing on the merit of Aquinas' arguments on the death penalty. I see you don't really want to discuss the Aquinas view of the death penalty. No worries - I just brought it up as a feeler to see what you DID want to shoot the breeze about on the issue. Aquinas is a bit difficult to discuss if you haven't read him in a while and I only happened to do so by chance. I still remain perplexed with regards to what you want to discuss, but minor details.

A lot of Church clergy base their opposition to the death penalty on the New Testament, while completely ignoring the case of Ananias and Sapphira in the Acts - a well as other examples, such as in one of Paul's letters to the Romans. How do you think they justify this to themselves?

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[kallend 2,174]

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The Church's many many wrongdoings throughout history - not merely during the inquisition - don't really have much bearing on the merit of Aquinas' arguments on the death penalty. I see you don't really want to discuss the Aquinas view of the death penalty. No worries - I just brought it up as a feeler to see what you DID want to shoot the breeze about on the issue. Aquinas is a bit difficult to discuss if you haven't read him in a while and I only happened to do so by chance. I still remain perplexed with regards to what you want to discuss, but minor details.

A lot of Church clergy base their opposition to the death penalty on the New Testament, while completely ignoring the case of Ananias and Sapphira in the Acts - a well as other examples, such as in one of Paul's letters to the Romans. How do you think they justify this to themselves?

Maybe they read Matthew 5. Does Jesus outrank Luke and Paul?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Deuce 1]

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Does Jesus outrank Luke and Paul?

You misspelled it. Jesus actually outdrank Luke and Paul. Everybody like having Jesus at a party. The wine flowed like water.