Canada: Gun Registration Failure

[christelsabine 1]

Holy Moses,

what a bundled attack on me, Germany "and so many other countries"! No comment on that, I just refer to my post No. 23.

re 2, last sentence: I should have added this smiley , perhaps you would have seen the irony.

BTW: Our gun control laws work.
Black markets cannot be controlled. Not even in Germany

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[juanesky 0]

just trying to reciprocate And is not attack it is spelled HISTORY. FYI.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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So glad to see that Germans still support gun registration, so many decades after those very laws were used to make Jews defenseless against the Nazi regime.

Are you realy trying to imply that WWII or the holocaust would not have happened if jews in particular or the german population in general would have been allowed to cary weapons?

[JohnRich 4]

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Our gun control laws work.
Black markets cannot be controlled. Not even in Germany

Those two statements contradict each other.

The fact that you believe the first statement, despite the second one, reveals the lack of logic in your position.

"The number of firearms required to satisfy the crime market is minute, and these are supplied no matter what controls are instituted... There is no case, either in the history of this country or in the experience of other countries, in which controls can be shown to have restricted the flow of weapons to criminals or in any way reduced armed crime."
- Metropolitan Police Superintendent, Colin Greenwood, West Yorkshire, England, 1996.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"The table shows that the United States has a very high level of gun ownership and also
has high or very high levels of homicide, gun homicide, gun suicide and gun accidents.
But that one example does not establish an immutable rule. Australia, Canada, Finland,
Germany, New Zealand and Sweden all have very high levels of gun ownership, in land's
being the highest recorded in the survey. All these are matched with low or very low
levels of homicide, with very low accident levels in all but one case, and with very
variable suicide rates.
This survey confirms that, despite a single exception, a high level of violent deaths and
particularly guns deaths can exist in countries where gun ownership levels vary from very
low to very high and that very low levels of violent deaths can exist in countries with
very high levels of gun ownership.
There is, in fact, no relationship between high levels of gun ownership and high levels
of gun deaths or of violent deaths in general."

Later in the report.....

"It seems to be assumed that producing comparable time series or cross sectional figures
for gun deaths is a simple matter. In fact truly comparable statistics are almost
impossible to produce."

Colin Greenwood, March 2000, I'm surmising he's the same Greenwood you refer to.
http://www.wfsa.net/adobe_documents/Cross_Sectional_Study.PDF

It appears the adage that there are lies, damn lies and statistics applies to gun statistics also.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[billvon 3,131]

Cut it out. The usual one warning.

[Skyrad 0]

Nationalism is on the rise everywhere in Europe not just France and Germany, and the UK IS part of Europe. (Its also a crime to say the holocaust did not happen in the UK as well.)

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[christelsabine 1]

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Those two statements contradict each other.

The fact that you believe the first statement, despite the second one, reveals the lack of logic in your position.

"The number of firearms required to satisfy the crime market is minute, and these are supplied no matter what controls are instituted... There is no case, either in the history of this country or in the experience of other countries, in which controls can be shown to have restricted the flow of weapons to criminals or in any way reduced armed crime."
- Metropolitan Police Superintendent, Colin Greenwood, West Yorkshire, England, 1996

Dear friend of guns, in fact : NO.

On gun controls, you are in the active process.

Regarding black market development, you are the passive part.

2 different procedures which cannot be combined.

You will never change my opinion on that.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[Kennedy 0]

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So glad to see that Germans still support gun registration, so many decades after those very laws were used to make Jews defenseless against the Nazi regime.

Are you realy trying to imply that WWII or the holocaust would not have happened if jews in particular or the german population in general would have been allowed to cary weapons?

Well, it's something to consider. Just look the Warsaw ghetto. How many guns were there and how many SS troops were held at bay for how long?

Very few, very many, and longer than anyone expected

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Kennedy 0]

How can you say your gun control is working if the black market is circumventing the laws? I don't understand your stance there.

Are you saying it is working becuse fewer people (who wouldn't otherwise break laws anyway) own guns?

Isn't the point of gun control to reduce the number of guns int he hands of criminals?

If that is the case, it is failing in Germany, right?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[PhillyKev 0]

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Are you realy trying to imply that WWII or the holocaust would not have happened if jews in particular or the german population in general would have been allowed to cary weapons?

No, I'm sure they would have voluntarily marched off to the ovens while holding a shotgun. Someone points a gun at you and says come with me to a death camp, you don't think you'd react differently depending on if you had your own weapon?

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Nationalism is on the rise everywhere in Europe not just France and Germany, and the UK IS part of Europe. (Its also a crime to say the holocaust did not happen in the UK as well.)

See, that's just sick. Here in America, it is anathema to us to suggest a law that says you can't state what you believe (granted, it's not legal if it is defamatory against another).

I can go out and state that George W. Bush is acting like a fascist dictator if I want, or call Ted Kennedy a lying treacherous scumbag (along with Chuck Schumer and Diane Feinstein, I would add). I can't be prosecuted for that. I can deny the holocaust, I could even make a claim that I believe slavery never happened.

It speaks of the WEAKNESS of a society if it must suppress offensive or controversial speech, rather than allow it to be confronted in the open where it could theoretically be exposed as false and stupid. Isn't it better to LET holocaust deniers speak their minds, so that they can be exposed as foolish liars? What is the big fear of letting a bunch of revisionist liars put their idiotic claims on display to be ridiculed and discounted?

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[christelsabine 1]

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If that is the case, it is failing in Germany, right?

No way. Like many laws, this one has to be improved according to changes in our own country and abroad. Political changings f.e. ?

Not every law set up years ago will cover present situation.

Why don't you spend your energy to figure out exact dates about your country and let me know?

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Folks, Idunno, maybe Christelsabine is a really good person and a great skydiver, whatever, but for some reason I think we are just not gonna get through to her about this.

If someone can say that "the gun control laws are great and work fine except for all the people who get guns illegally on the black market and actually believe that the two are not mutually exclusive, that person is either intellectually dishonest or simply intellectually incapable of looking at the issue logically.

This discussion is a great object lesson, though, for it can help us understand just what we're up against with people like Chuck Schumer, Frank Lautenberg, Ted Kennedy, Diane Feinstein, et al. Some people, like those listed, either are liars about what they believe, or they're ignorant enough to believe lies. In either case, they can't be reasoned-with and must simply be opposed.

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[christelsabine 1]

Dear peacefullyjeffrey...

do not try to get through. I am German, I am European. It seems there is big big gap between your and my way of thinking. This already starts as in my opinion it is absolutely unimaginable to raise up my child(ren) together with guns. In your country, it seems to be normal.

So, just stop trying to convince me. I am traditional on that. "That person".. ... is

looking back on my education: I feel sure there is no intellecutal lack.

I am proud about my education, my studies, my titles, whatever you want. I do appreciate the chances I had in Germany and Canada.

There were so many places in the world I lived in, that really opens the eyes.

Just try. You will learn.




Guy, anyhow I don't mind.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[Kennedy 0]

OK, maybe I'm not understanding your point of view.

If we both agree that gun control laws in Germany are not preventing criminals from getting guns, what are they accomplishing? How are they working? What other goals are they reaching? What other positive effect are those gun control laws having?

(I used repeated questions not to be mean in any way shape or form. I just wanted to make sure the question I'm asking gets across. Overall, what good are they doing if they don't stop criminals from getting guns?)

I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I just want to better understand what you are saying.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[TomAiello 26]

You could argue that taking guns out of the hands of the populace at large cuts the number of gun related accidents (as distinct from gun related "on purpose" incidents, which would involve those black market guns).

Personally, I believe one of the costs of freedom to be the potential to have accidents while exercising that freedom (whether it be the freedom to jump from a plane [or cliff], the freedom to drive a car, the freedom to own a gun, the freedom to use recreational substances, etc, etc, etc).

I'll take freedom, even if it means I have to accept risk.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[christelsabine 1]

Just today fell over the attached report.

makes me think somehow

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[Jimbo 0]

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Some gun control groups agree. They say loopholes in the law have allowed manufacturers to make guns which are almost identical to assault weapons, but are not covered by the ban.

They must be referring to those guns that have barrels and triggers and fire bullets. When will this madness stop? When?

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Some gun control groups agree. They say loopholes in the law have allowed manufacturers to make guns which are almost identical to assault weapons, but are not covered by the ban.

They must be referring to those guns that have barrels and triggers and fire bullets. When will this madness stop? When?

Jim

The anti-gunners wrote the idiotic ban, and the ban simply does not cover guns that do not possess various accessories (bayonet attachment, pistol grip, flash suppressor, threaded barrel, etc.). If they don't like the fact that a gun made without those things is perfectly legal to make and sell and possess, who the hell can they blame but themselves?! Lately they seem to be arguing that companies that make legal items should not be making them, even though they're not illegal, because that's what the legislators would have wanted. Well, if the legislators really wanted guns of the POST-ban type (no nasty "assault weapon" accessories, like my Colt Match Target H-BAR), they should have written their moronic law that way.

Their arguments are akin to a legislator who wrote a speed limit law for a certain highway to be 55 mph, and then bitching about people "skirting" that law with a "loophole" that makes it legal to do 54.

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[Kennedy 0]

That's nice, I knew those extremists were marching today.

You didn't answer my question. If the gun control laws in Germany don't stop criminals from getting guns, what are they accomplishing?

For information on the "Assault Weapons Ban," I'll direct everyone to the thread I started specifically to discuss it. Thread HERE

I won't repost the entire thing, but basically the AWB banned cosmetic features on semi-automatic rifles, and some features on handguns and shotguns. Those features were things like pistol grips, bayonet lugs, flash suppressors, etc. (In my opinion is is a pointless law that had zero effect on crime but looked good as a show piece for "getting tough on crime") The AWB had no effect on how fast a gun could fire, what it could fire, or how deadly it could be.


Also, as an update, the Assault Weapons Ban had basically one chance at getting passed before it 'sunsets' in 126 days, the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms. The AWB was supposed to be an amendment, but the entire bill was scrapped to prevent the AWB from being repeated.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[juanesky 0]

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You didn't answer my question. If the gun control laws in Germany don't stop criminals from getting guns, what are they accomplishing?


I'll answer that if you don't mind: Unarmed law abiding citizens at the mercy of armed and dangerous criminals.

But what would we know

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

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[christelsabine 1]

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If the gun control laws in Germany don't stop criminals from getting guns, what are they accomplishing?

Heaven, you insist on that ! OK.

If a criminal one wants a gun, he will get it. This is one side. The other one is:

We do not have your basic right to own a weapon. so fundamental problem is missing here. (Which I consider as the biggest one and I am happy we do not face)

starting-point at our weapon law (better: weapon "right") is referring mainly to legalized weapons, their regulations, restrictions. Legalized weapon owners mainly are hunters (licensed), sport shooters and in few cases endangeroud persons.

Mainly caused by the weapon murder case in Erfurt, our law has been intensified on controlling (at applicants): possession of arms, their personal suitability; quicker/easier access to Federal Central Register to collect any information needed on that applicant.

Restricted amount of owning hand guns is common.

Except hunters (which already proofed their suitability during months and months of training, learning, examinations), sport shooters f. e. which did not reach the age of 25 have to present a medical-psychological investigation. for this group of applicants, the age limit is increased to 21 (before: 18).

Furthermore, signal, gas and similar weapons are restricted. as at nearly 50 percent of offences (heavy crime cases) these types of weapons are used. A so called "small gun-license" is installed and has to be applied on and this also refers to alarm shot pistols.

Licensed hunters below 21 years have to be joined by an adult licensed hunter while hunting.

Pump guns are illicit and prohibited. These weapons are considered als the classical "lower world " weapons and are not used for hunting or sports.

The list of adapted points is much longer.

Just take into consideration the basic difference between US und Germany:

Our average citizen is not growing up with a gun.
Has no easy access to a gun just in the shop next door.Our laws are installed accordingly. As I am a licensed hunter, i agree with our law (better: right) and feel comfortable. (Even though I feel better to know I have a gun in my home )

Anyhow, I feel sure this is not what you wanted to here. Blame it on misunderstanding in language.

Weapon law cannot get black market under control.
Neither here nor overseas.

But I appreciate it's so damned hard to get a weapon in hands on legal ways.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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No, I'm sure they would have voluntarily marched off to the ovens while holding a shotgun. Someone points a gun at you and says come with me to a death camp, you don't think you'd react differently depending on if you had your own weapon?

First of all, the far majority of jews did not know that they were being transfered to death camps. Media was tightly controled and jews were told they were going to labour camps. So, the choice became, do i get killed by the germans or do I go and work in a labour camp.

Putting that all to the side. If you and Kennedy truly believe this, then how do you explain all the attrocities that Saddam Hussain got away with. Iraq was a country with an extremely high rate of gun ownership. almost all families in old Iraq owned guns.

If according to the two of you the holocaust could have been prevented by gun ownership of jews, then how could all the torture and killing in Iraq have happend?

[Skyrad 0]

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But what would we know

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Now theres a question!

(Add irony to taste)

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

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