Military colleagues say Kerry unfit to be Commander-in-Chief

[kallend 2,114]

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Kallend,

Remember the don't vote for the same guy twice rule.

The rule is "Never vote for an incumbent". That's not quite the same.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,085]

>I'm sure all of them would just love to hear Mr. FlipFlop tell them
>what he thinks of them.

Just as the Vietnam Vets for Peace would love to hear the Bush campaign's ridicule of Vietnam-era Purple Hearts, or his ridicule of those who both fight in and are against a war. Perhaps he could call them FlipFlops!

[billvon 3,085]

>Does Bush have EVERY COMMANDING OFFICER that he served under
> saying that he is "UNFIT" and signing thier name to it?

No, but several of them can't even remember him being there, so no suprise there.

But let's look at some of the people you describe as "every commanding officer" -

John O'Neill. He was recruited by Nixon 30 years ago to smear Kerry. "Give it to him, give it to him," Nixon was recorded as saying. And who is O'Neill to disobey the president? Now, O'Neill never met Kerry in Vietnam, but that didn't stop him - he obediently attacked.

Hoffman. A few months ago he told the Boston Globe that Kerry "was just going off on excursions that were not part of the plan at the time." But Hoffman said those problems were corrected and that he admired the gutsy way Kerry later went after the enemy. One wonders why he suddenly changed his mind. And to think people call Kerry two-faced.

Now let's look at some quotes of people who served with him that somehow slipped through the cracks of the conservative smear machine:

October 19, 1967, evaluation from Captain Allen W. Slifer:
A top notch officer in every measurable trait. Intelligent, mature, and rich in educational background and experience, ENS Kerry is one of the finest young officers I have ever met and without question one of the most promising.

September 3, 1968, evaluation from Captain E.W. Harper, Jr.:
LTJG KERRY is an intelligent and competent young naval officer who has performed his duties in an excellent to outstanding manner.

December 18, 1969, evaluation from LCDR George M. Elliott:
In a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action LTJG Kerry was unsurpassed. He constantly reviewed tactics and lessons learned in river operations and applied his experience at every opportunity. On one occasion while in tactical command of a three boat operation his units were taken under fire from ambush. LTJG Kerry rapidly assessed the situation and ordered his units to turn directly into the ambush. This decision resulted in routing the attackers with several enemy KIA.

January 28, 1969, evaluation by Joseph Streuli:
... exhibited all of the traits of an officer in a combat environment. He frequently exhibited a high sense of imagination and judgment in planning operations against the enemy in the Mekong Delta.

March 2, 1970 evaluation from Admiral Walter F. Schlech:
... one of the finest young officers with whom I have served in a long naval career.

------------------

Isn't it funny how he got glowing recommendations during the war, and his name wasn't dragged through the mud until a US president ordered another vietnam vet to trash his reputation? Seems to be a pattern with republicans.

[Mirage63 0]

Did I miss something? (I mean it)

Has Bush campaign been ridiculing Vietnam-era Purple hearts???

[billvon 3,085]

>Has Bush campaign been ridiculing Vietnam-era Purple hearts???

No, no more than Kerry has been claiming that all Guardsmen went AWOL during their service. But that hasn't stopped either side from claiming that Kerry is dissing all Guardsmen or that Bush is attacking everyone who got a Purple Heart.

[Gawain 0]

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Did I miss something? (I mean it)

Has Bush campaign been ridiculing Vietnam-era Purple hearts???

No. In fact, I've seen nothing from the RNC or the like attacking any such "issue".

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[billvon 3,085]

>No. In fact, I've seen nothing from the RNC or the like attacking any
> such "issue".


From CNN:
Kerry posts military records online
Some conservatives question seriousness of injuries

WASHINGTON (AP) -- John Kerry's campaign is posting his military records on the Internet as his critics question the combat injuries that earned him three Purple Hearts and an early exit from Vietnam. . . .

Conservatives, talk radio hosts and some newspaper editorials have questioned the seriousness of his injuries and whether the Massachusetts senator was deserving of the three Purple Hearts, which resulted in his reassignment out of Vietnam.

From CBS:

The dilemma the Bush campaign now faces is that Kerry refused to comment on Mr. Bush’s National Guard service until Republicans began parsing through Kerry’s service in the war and his later opposition to it.

Kerry will continue to say, “This is a controversy the Republicans are pushing,” as he did Monday on ABC’s "Good Morning America." And soon enough, the Bush campaign may regret picking a political fight over the Vietnam War.

-----------

Gotta watch more than FOX!

[Gravitymaster 0]

Gee, I wonder why Republicans keep bringing up Kerrys record.

[Gawain 0]

I'll rephrase my previous comment. I should have said that I have not paid much attention to the criticism to Kerry's service record. Why? Because Vietnam was enough of a God-awful-shitty-mess which I pin squarely on President Johnson. Let the critics ask their questions. Sooner or later (hopefully sooner) they'll concentrate less on Kerry's service, and more on his conduct after the fact, because that is worth putting under the microscope.

It's undeniable though that Kerry brought up his record first. In fact, it is the cornerstone of his campaign -- he's been milking it for all it's worth. Unfortunately, to me, it looks more like bragging.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Ron 10]

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From CNN:
Kerry posts military records online
Some conservatives question seriousness of injuries

WASHINGTON (AP) -- John Kerry's campaign is posting his military records on the Internet as his critics question the combat injuries that earned him three Purple Hearts and an early exit from Vietnam. . . .

Conservatives, talk radio hosts and some newspaper editorials have questioned the seriousness of his injuries and whether the Massachusetts senator was deserving of the three Purple Hearts, which resulted in his reassignment out of Vietnam.

From CBS:

The dilemma the Bush campaign now faces is that Kerry refused to comment on Mr. Bush’s National Guard service until Republicans began parsing through Kerry’s service in the war and his later opposition to it.

Kerry will continue to say, “This is a controversy the Republicans are pushing,” as he did Monday on ABC’s "Good Morning America." And soon enough, the Bush campaign may regret picking a political fight over the Vietnam War.

No where in there do I see an attack from Bush or any RNC person...

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Mirage63 0]

What's interesting to me is that it SEEMED as a country we had put this behind us by electing and re-electing Bill Clinton a man who made it clear he was dodgeing going to Vietnam. (right or wrong isn't the point here)

GWB did more than Clinton did by joining the N.G. Kerry WENT, seems to me that would be the ABC's of serving.

My point is, is this really an issue that the people really care all that much about?

Just a thought

[Ron 10]

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What's interesting to me is that it SEEMED as a country we had put this behind us by electing and re-electing Bill Clinton a man who made it clear he was dodgeing going to Vietnam. (right or wrong isn't the point here)

GWB did more than Clinton did by joining the N.G. Kerry WENT, seems to me that would be the ABC's of serving.

My point is, is this really an issue that the people really care all that much about?

Nope, I care omre about what they did after, and what they are doing now, then if there served...They both did.

You are right, it is funny that the Dems have issues with Bush being in the NG, but supported Clinton dodgeing the draft.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[PhillyKev 0]

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but supported Clinton dodgeing the draft.

Is that what a student deferment is? Dodging the draft? FYI, Cheyney had 5 deferments. Does it matter? No. I can't believe anyone keeps talking about either of their military records. I don't see any bearing on how either would do as president based on that info.

[Kennedy 0]

You see no difference between going to school and writing a letter to the draft board telling them to piss off?

Clinton ran to Canada, not university.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[PhillyKev 0]

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Clinton ran to Canada, not university.

What are you talking about? He was a Rhodes scholar, meaning he was going to graduate school at Oxford.

[Kennedy 0]

Sorry wrong draft dodger.

This is an exertpt from a letter written by Colonel Eugene J. Holmes, the man who was deceived by Mr. 'what is is,' and 'I didn't inhale.'

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The next day I began to receive phone calls regarding Bill Clinton's draft status. I was informed by the draft board that it was of interest to Senator Fullbright's office that Bill Clinton, a Rhodes Scholar, should be admitted to the ROTC program. I received several such calls. The general message conveyed by the draft board to me was that Senator Fullbright's office was putting pressure on them and that they needed my help. I then made the necessary arrangements to enroll Mr. Clinton into the ROTC program at the University of Arkansas.

I was not "saving" him from serving his country, as he erroneously thanked me for in his letter from England (dated December 3, 1969). I was making it possible for a Rhodes Scholar to serve in the military as an officer.

In retrospect I see that Mr. Clinton had no intention of following through with his agreement to join the Army ROTC program at the University of Arkansas or to attend the University of Arkansas Law School. I had explained to him the necessity of enrolling at the University of Arkansas as a student in order to be eligible to take the ROTC program at the University. He never enrolled at the University of Arkansas, but instead enrolled at Yale after attending Oxford. I believe that he purposely deceived me, using the possibility of joining the ROTC as a ploy to work with the draft board to delay his induction and get a new draft classification.

The December 3rd letter written to me by Mr. Clinton, and subsequently taken from the files by Lt. Col. Clint Jones, my executive officer, was placed into the ROTC files so that a record would be available in case the applicant should again petition to enter into the ROTC program. The information in that letter alone would have restricted Bill Clinton from ever qualifying to be an officer in the United States Military. Even more significant was his lack of veracity in purposefully defrauding the military by deceiving me, both in concealing his anti-military activities overseas and his counterfeit intentions for later military service. These actions cause me to question both his patriotism and his integrity.

He supported others fleeing the country to avoid the draft. He says calling them criminals for breaking the law is obscene. He stated he wanted to join the military to avoid being drafted. He is a draft dodger. He ran.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[PhillyKev 0]

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He supported others fleeing the country to avoid the draft. He says calling them criminals for breaking the law is obscene. He stated he wanted to join the military to avoid being drafted. He is a draft dodger. He ran.

You're right, he's just as culpable as Cheyney and Bush in avoiding Vietnam. And once again, he's irrelevant.

[Kennedy 0]

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You're right, he's just as culpable as Cheyney and Bush in avoiding Vietnam.

So that's it. You're coming out and saying everyone who served in the Natinal Guard is guilty.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Mirage63 0]

Hold it.

Bush served in the NG, he could have been called up. He wasn't. He didn't vol. to go - but that is in no way the same as what Clinton did.

I don't know the details of Cheny.

But the last few post show what I was talking about. The pro Kerry, pro Bush people can beat this to death, but nobody else seems to care.

[crzjp20 0]

i hope thats not what he ment casue he would have pissed of the wrong kid then.....

--------------------------------------------------
Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage.

[Kennedy 0]

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Bush served in the NG, he could have been called up. He wasn't. He didn't vol. to go -

Actually I recall something saying he did ask about going over to Vietnam, but was told he didn't have the flight time to go without the whole unit going, or somehting like that.



ps - I'm not pro Bush. I won't be voiting for either of them.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[PhillyKev 0]

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Quote

You're right, he's just as culpable as Cheyney and Bush in avoiding Vietnam.

So that's it. You're coming out and saying everyone who served in the Natinal Guard is guilty.

No, just those that pulled strings to get into the NG and bypass the waiting list thereby screwing someone else into going in their place.

[Kennedy 0]

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No, just those that pulled strings to get into the NG and bypass the waiting list thereby screwing someone else into going in their place.

I'd be the first to say that's a possibility in this world, but is there any evidence of that?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[PhillyKev 0]

It's been widely circulated and corroborated that he scored in the lowest 25th percentile for the pilot aptitude test, checked off DO NOT volunteer for overseas duty on the application, yet was admitted immediately after graduation even though there was a waiting list of 100,000 applicants, who if drafted before admitted would have been shipped off to Vietnam.

Speaker of the House in Texas at the time, Ben Barnes, admitted he had received a request from a longtime Bush family friend, Sidney Adger of Houston, to help Bush get into the Air National Guard.

Barnes further testified that he contacted the head of the Texas Air National Guard, Brig. Gen. James Rose

[Ron 10]

And this is worse than lying to get a deferment, or performing war crimes?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334