Fed shoots himself in leg while giving gun SAFETY presentation

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Here is the clicky (CNN.com):

Idiot Fed shoots self

This goes into the "Yeah, right -- only the police should have guns" file.

Story:

Quote

ORLANDO, Florida (AP) -- A federal drug agent shot himself in the leg during a gun safety presentation to children in what police describe as an accident. His bosses, however, are still investigating the incident.

The Drug Enforcement Administration agent, whose name was not released, was speaking April 9 to about 50 adults and students organized by the Orlando Minority Youth Golf Association, witnesses and police said.

He drew his .40-caliber duty weapon and removed the magazine, according to the police report. He then pulled back the slide and asked an audience member to look inside the gun and confirm it wasn't loaded.

Witnesses said when the agent released the slide, one shot fired into the top of his left thigh. The gun was pointed at the floor.

The agent was treated at Orlando Regional Medical Center and returned to work, a DEA official said.

Speaking of Zero Tolerance... We will expel and prosecute a girl who unknowingly had an electric stun gun in the back of her borrowed vehicle, but we don't have zero tolerance for shithead FEDS who accidentally have guns go off in front of CHILDREN?!"

Where are the fucking Million Mom Marchers NOW, screaming to get this "trained law enforcement officer" "off the streets"?! Is it lost on them that only by the grace of god was the gun pointed at this moron's leg and not the assembled children?!

This shithead deserves to be FIRED for incompetence, and PROSECUTED for endangering the welfare of minors.

If there was actually a fault with the gun, it'd be news to me. I dunno if he had a Glock, Smith & Wesson, Sig Sauer or any of the numerous high quality/reliability guns that the DEA issues, but I've never heard of any of those ever firing simply because the slide was closed on a live round. The trigger has to be in a pulled position, period. So IF there was a flaw in the gun, the guy should still have had it pointed at nothing but floor. So even in the case of a defective gun specimen, the fact that he hit his own leg tells me he was being criminally negligent.

And they tell us that we civilians are incompetent to have guns, and that only law enforcement and military should have them.

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[Gawain 0]

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And they tell us that we civilians are incompetent to have guns, and that only law enforcement and military should have them.

But it's for the children......

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[quade 4]

Forget the possible defect of firing a round by closing the slide.

Why did he rely on an audience member to tell him if the gun had a round chambered or not? Didn't he look himself?

D'oh!

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Forget the possible defect of firing a round by closing the slide.

Why did he rely on an audience member to tell him if the gun had a round chambered or not? Didn't he look himself?

D'oh!

Do you understand gun function? It does not come down to whether his audience was correct in telling him, "Yeah, Bob, there's no cartridge in there, go ahead and close the slide." The closing of the slide does not fire the round -- if it did, you'd have an uncontrollable full-auto pistol there.

You should be able to safely close the slide on a live round. That is a primary action performed with any semiautomatic gun! It's called "chambering a round"! You can't get ready to fire unless you do that! So either the gun was defective and fired from the act of chambering a round, or the idiot fed, who didn't follow the simple gun safety rule of "always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction" had his finger on the trigger as he released the slide.

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[Gawain 0]

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Forget the possible defect of firing a round by closing the slide.

I have a question about that. Follow me on this, hopefully someone can understand what I'm describing (since I'm not a gun expert):

If I remove the magazine, when a round is already in the chamber, then I pull the slide back, but not far enough to eject the bullet, but enough to see if a round is in the chamber, and I have a finger on the trigger, the safety is off, and I let go of the slide (allowing it to snap back), wouldn't that fire the round?

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[nbblood 0]

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So even in the case of a defective gun specimen, the fact that he hit his own leg tells me he was being criminally negligent.

Nah, If he was criminally negligent it would've been pointed at someone else. It's just gross negligence.

Before you decide to argue with me, I'm just kidding....what an idiot!!! Glad he didn't shoot someone other than himself though.

Blues,
Nathan

Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Quote

Quote

Forget the possible defect of firing a round by closing the slide.

I have a question about that. Follow me on this, hopefully someone can understand what I'm describing (since I'm not a gun expert):

If I remove the magazine, when a round is already in the chamber, then I pull the slide back, but not far enough to eject the bullet, but enough to see if a round is in the chamber, and I have a finger on the trigger, the safety is off, and I let go of the slide (allowing it to snap back), wouldn't that fire the round?

Later on, I'll take out one of my guns and mess around with it to see if this would happen. I believe it would fire. You'd have to have your finger pressing the trigger, not just "on" the trigger, but yes, I believe that if the trigger is actuated while the slide comes forward, the round gets chambered, the slide goes into battery, and the trigger mechanism operates to drop the striker or hammer, and the gun fires. Betcha that's what this moron did. It should cost him his leg and his job, but unfortunately it looks like it will cost him neither.

Now a whole bunch of kids will probably be indoctrinated that guns are unduly dangerous even in the hands of "trained professionals."

I wonder if anyone is going to go before those kids and explain to them why the nice mr. drug enforcement man was WRONG to do what he did, and caused his own accident? I wonder if anyone will point out to the kids that if the guy had been following the rules of gun safety, he would simply have made a loud bang and a hole in the linoleum.

No, for the anti-gun school admin, they're probably much happier having instilled a fear of unpredictable, dangerous guns in their students.

If I were a parent there, I'd sue the shit out of the school and the DEA. And I'd donate half the money to the NRA.

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[Kennedy 0]

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He drew his .40-caliber duty weapon and removed the magazine, according to the police report. He then pulled back the slide and asked an audience member to look inside the gun and confirm it wasn't loaded.

Witnesses said when the agent released the slide, one shot fired into the top of his left thigh. The gun was pointed at the floor.

What ever happened to "Never point the firearm at anything you are not willing to destroy," good old rule # 2?

I hate to tell him, but if he dropped the magazine and then racked the slide, as he claims, there there was no cartridge in the chamber to even be fired. Did anyone else notice his scenario makes it impossible to get shot?

I'm thinking he pulled the slide back a bit, but never checked himself, and so he never saw the cartridge he left in the chamber. Then he releases the slide, tries to get a louder "clack" sound, has his finger inside the trigger guard, starts to loose his grip, and grabs with all five fingers.

Presto...one gun shot wound to the "trained law enforcement officer."

edit: oh yeah, I left out the part where he's pointing the gun at himself!!

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Kennedy 0]

I suppose it's possible, but I think most pistols require the trigger to be pulled after the slide has completely returned to rest. I'm pretty sure Glocks and Sigs are like that. I don't know about 1911s, H&Ks, or anything else.

Too bad I don't have a sufficient supply of pistols to go test out the theory. Range session anyone?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[quade 4]

Quote

Do you understand gun function? It does not come down to whether his audience was correct in telling him, "Yeah, Bob, there's no cartridge in there, go ahead and close the slide." The closing of the slide does not fire the round -- if it did, you'd have an uncontrollable full-auto pistol there.

You've missed my point entirely.

I assume that the reason he took the magazine out of the gun and then showed the supposedly empty chamber to an audience member was in preparation to hand over the gun to the audience member.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that what you're supposed to do before handing a weapon to someone -- unload it, open the chamber and look to make sure it's unloaded, then hand them the gun.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Kennedy 0]

It is impossible to "slam fire" most firearms issued to federal LEOs. They simply will not fire without pulling the trigger.

You are, however, correct that he is an idiot for trusting someone else to tell him that his own firearm is unloaded. One should always check the chamber himself, then offer it to another.

edit: offer it to another with the action open.
Jeffrey is correct.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Quote

You've missed my point entirely.

I assume that the reason he took the magazine out of the gun and then showed the supposedly empty chamber to an audience member was in preparation to hand over the gun to the audience member.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that what you're supposed to do before handing a weapon to someone -- unload it, open the chamber and look to make sure it's unloaded, then hand them the gun.

Negative. You are supposed to hand the gun over with the slide locked open, with no round in the chamber. In the case of a revolver, you hand it over with no rounds in the chambers, and the cylinder open.

It is not proper gun safety to hand over a gun with the action closed.

I don't know to whom this guy was going to hand his gun: his audience was kids. In these pathetic times, you'd probably have an anti-gun parent sue someone for letting her kid even just handle an empty gun, for fear it's indoctrinating the kid in the "gun culture."

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[kmcguffee 0]

Quote

You are, however, correct that he is an idiot for trusting someone else to tell him that his own firearm is unloaded. One should always check the chamber himself, then offer it to another.

The policy in most Federal Law Enforcement Agencies is to check the chamber yourself and then have someone else confirm for you when you are giving a demonstration. I think that is what they are trying to say happened here, not that he only had someone else check for him. The chain of events given do not make sense. If he dropped the magazine, pulled the slide to the rear, checked the chamber, then released the slide, there would be no round in the chamber. I know what probably happened but I'm not going to start any wild hypothesis.

Personally, I unload my weapons before I enter a school when giving a presentation and I never place a loaded magazine in the weapon while in the school. At least he only shot himself.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[Kennedy 0]

A longer a slightly more detailed article (with just a hint of liberal slant).

From the Orlando Sentinel (subscription required, so I'll post the article here)

Quote

DEA agent shoots himself in safety class

By Pamela J. Johnson | Orlando Sentinel Staff Writer
Posted April 30, 2004

The U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration is investigating an incident in which one of its agents giving a presentation to Orlando-area children on gun safety shot himself in the thigh.

Orlando police investigators have ruled the April 9 shooting at The Callahan Center, 101 N. Parramore Ave., accidental, police Lt. Curley Bowman said Thursday night.

But DEA special agent Joe Kilmer said Thursday night that an internal investigation led by officials at the agency's headquarters in Washington was still ongoing. Kilmer would not release the name of the agent involved. After the agent was treated at Orlando Regional Medical Center for a gunshot wound to his left thigh, he returned to work, Kilmer said.

Vivian Farmer, 52, was in a classroom at The Callahan Center with her 13-year-old nephew when the agent began his presentation about 7 p.m. Roughly 50 adults and children were present, and it was "standing room only," Farmer said Thursday night.

The presentation was part of a class called "The Game of Life, The Game of Golf," according to a police report. It was held by the Orlando Minority Youth Golf Association, which aims to introduce minority children to the sport. The agent was speaking to the youths about making good life choices and included a presentation on gun safety, according to the report.

During the speech, the agent drew his .40-caliber duty weapon and removed the magazine, the report said. He then pulled back the slide and asked a man in the audience to look inside the weapon to make sure it was not loaded, the report said.

"The person nodded that it didn't have ammunition," Farmer recounted. "The gun was never pointed at anyone."

Witnesses told police that the agent kept his gun pointed toward the floor and when he released the slide, the weapon fired one shot into the top of his thigh.

"The kids screamed and started to cry," Farmer recounted. "My first thought was that it was part of his presentation. I thought it was a blank and he was trying to make a point about how easy it is to fire, to get the kids' attention. But then I looked at the agent's face and he looked surprised. Then there was a quick grimace on his face of sudden pain.

"I thought, 'This isn't a joke. This is real.' "

Farmer said most people rushed out while an ambulance and police were arriving.

"Everyone was pretty shaken up," Farmer said. "But the point of gun safety hit home. Unfortunately, the agent had to get shot. But after seeing that, my nephew doesn't want to have anything to do with guns."


Pamela J. Johnson can be reached
at pjohnson@orlandosentinel.com

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[quade 4]

Just so I'll know it the next time I'm reading an article . . . could you point out the hints of "liberal slant" you mentioned?

Seriously, I see nothing but reporting of what other people (officials, reports, eye witnesses) have said.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[nathaniel 0]

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Personally, I unload my weapons before I enter a school when giving a presentation and I never place a loaded magazine in the weapon while in the school. At least he only shot himself.

Of all the reasons to find the man negligent I think using live ammunition in a demonstration would be near the top for me...that together with handing it to an unspecified audience member...

nathaniel

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[Kennedy 0]

Does the phrase "Selection Bias" mean anything to you?

What about "group-think"?

When I talk to people in the news (or from NYC or LA or DC) they are more than happy to talk to me about the right. You know, the far right, the religious right, the radical right, the unapologetic right, etc etc. But there is no Left. There is only enlightened thinking, progressive ideas, and so on and so forth.

Anytime a place thinks being called a conservative is the worst insult they can throw at you, that place is probably just a bit biased, aka slanted.


Oh, and to answer your question, the brightest shining example of "progressive thought" is the final paragraph. The reporter interviewed one person and called the DEA? There's journalism at it's finest?

You say "offical report." What official report is mentioned in the article? The end of the fifth paragraph mentions a report, but WHAT REPORT? Police? DEA? "Reports" by other reporters?

You say "eye witnesses." I see only one witness named in the article, a 52 year old woman who is very anti-gun.

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"But the point of gun safety hit home. Unfortunately, the agent had to get shot. But after seeing that, my nephew doesn't want to have anything to do with guns."

That wouldn't make me not want to have anything to do with guns, that would make me not want to have anything to do with armed DEA agents.

Remember, gun safety is between your ears, not resting between your hands. It's the user, not the tool.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[quade 4]

So, you wouldn't be satisfied with any article from any reporter unless the reporter interviewed -everyone- at the event?

And where in the article did anyone call anyone else a liberal or conservative? I'm not really following your arguments here.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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So, you wouldn't be satisfied with any article from any reporter unless the reporter interviewed -everyone- at the event?

Quote

One might edge toward responsible journalism by interviewing at least several of those in attendance, and maybe finding someone who didn't have the knee-jerk hysterical reaction of "oh, now I'm never going near guns -- they're so dangerous!" (Notice she blames the GUN, not the careless gun HANDLING. This is typical of liberal hoplophobes.)

Quote

During the speech, the agent drew his .40-caliber duty weapon and removed the magazine, the report said. He then pulled back the slide and asked a man in the audience to look inside the weapon to make sure it was not loaded, the report said.

"The person nodded that it didn't have ammunition," Farmer recounted. "The gun was never pointed at anyone."

Witnesses told police that the agent kept his gun pointed toward the floor and when he released the slide, the weapon fired one shot into the top of his thigh.

Um, maybe the agent should sue the audience member for falsely assuring him that the chamber was empty!

How does the notion of, "the gun was never pointed at anyone" square with the FACT that it DID SHOOT SOMEONE, specifically its handler?! Is the illogic of that asinine statement lost on the person making it?

So witness told police the agent kept the gun pointed at the floor? If that were not a lie, the hole would be in the fucking floor, not in the agent.

And I know guns. A released slide does not so jerk the weapon that it would go from being adequately pointed in a safe direction to being pointed at the leg. With the proper grip, the muzzle barely moves at all when the slide release is performed.

This whole story is about "CYA" for this imbecile agent. He should be fired and prosecuted. His negligence, from using live ammunition to having a negligent discharge to injuring himself and costing our federal government money for his medical treatment, all should be punished. His negligence is inexcusable. How the hell can we not hold our federal law enforcement agents to a higher standard than to shoot themselves in the fucking leg in front of a bunch of kids at a gun safety seminar?! Is this not the height of irony?!

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

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[quade 4]

Quote

How the hell can we not hold our federal law enforcement agents to a higher standard than to shoot themselves in the fucking leg in front of a bunch of kids at a gun safety seminar?! Is this not the height of irony?!

Funny. I kinda thought the same thing.

I -believe- it only points out that guns, like parachutes, are not inherently "safe". That their use and ownership requires care and attention no matter how much experience and training a person might have.

Ya know, it's also funny you say that the reporter blames the gun. I didn't read that anywhere in the article. On the contrary, I believe she lets the facts speak for themselves.

Fortunately, he only hurt himself.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Ya know, it's also funny you say that the reporter blames the gun. I didn't read that anywhere in the article. On the contrary, I believe she lets the facts speak for themselves.

Fortunately, he only hurt himself.

Not the reporter, the woman who gave comments. She said that her son now wants nothing to do with guns. She did not get comment from any parents who are gun owners (surely there were some there) saying, "Gee, I guess this points out that incompetents can hurt themselves with guns, but it depends on the user."

I myself have used and owned guns for 11 years, if you count only firearms (and not BB guns). Add BB guns and it's 24 years or so. I have never shot myself, never almost shot myself, and never had an unintentional discharge. I would say that indicates that guns are not inherently unsafe. Now, consider, if guns are so easy to mishandle, resulting in property damage or injury, why don't we have hundreds of thousands of incidences of this each year, given that in the U.S. there are approximately a quarter billion privately owned firearms, and the total grows by several million each year?

The story ends with an implication that I think is hard to miss: the GUN caused the accident somehow -- and since there is no refutation of the response "now I'll stay away from guns," that is, by implication, the "right" conclusion to draw from this incident. And I strongly disagree. If that were true, we should all give up skydiving because we all know someone who has either been hurt or killed while using skydiving equipment and doing skydives.

Is that the case?

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[billvon 3,120]

> "Gee, I guess this points out that incompetents can hurt themselves
> with guns, but it depends on the user."

Why would they conclude that? Anyone can hurt themselves with a gun; it doesn't take an incompetent. That's true of this sport as well - unless you consider Rob Harris and Roger Nelson incompetent. Skydiving is a dangerous sport; using firearms is dangerous. Even competent and experienced participants can be injured or killed when they make a mistake. And everyone makes mistakes.

Want to skydive? Want to own a gun? No problem - but please don't tell people that either one is perfectly safe if you are competent.

[AggieDave 6]

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unload it, open the chamber and look to make sure it's unloaded, then hand them the gun.

Not just unload it and check the chamber, but lock the bolt open or the slide back with out the magazine in the well whe you hand it to them!

Then it is in an impossible fire situation. No rounds physically in the weapon and the bolt or slide locked open, no way to fire.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[JohnRich 4]

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If I remove the magazine, when a round is already in the chamber, then I pull the slide back, but not far enough to eject the bullet, but enough to see if a round is in the chamber, and I have a finger on the trigger, the safety is off, and I let go of the slide (allowing it to snap back), wouldn't that fire the round?

Good question. It prompted me to do an experiment, which was kind of fun for a boring Monday.

Note: my results here do not necessarily apply to whatever handgun this federal agent was using.

The handgun I used is a Colt .45, 1911 model - a modern version: Gold Cup National Match. I broke down a cartridge, removing the bullet and powder (photo attached). I locked the slide to the rear, and inserted the empty cartridge casing, with live primer, into the chamber. I put my finger on the trigger, held tension, and pushed the slide release, dropping the slide closed. Nothing happened! The hammer stayed cocked. I tried this three times, all with the same result: nothing happened.

Once the slide was already closed, I could release trigger tension, then pull the trigger again, and "POW", the hammer dropped and the primer fired.

So there is some kind of interlock on this particular handgun, which prevents the scenario in the news story from happening. But I don't know if the handgun he was using was built with the same safety feature.

Now you'll have to excuse me for a few minutes while I go swab out the bore to clean the primer residue...

[Kennedy 0]

See, you just made me realize skydiving is more dangerous than owning a gun. I realize skydiving that I might not go home tonight. With gun ownership, if it's just me and the gun, I know I'm going home tonight.

With skydiving, the ground is always "pointed at you." The same is not true with firearms.

Maybe you're seeing something I'm not...
what might do me in if I follow the four rules of safe gun handling?

fyi, they are:

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1: Every firearm is loaded until you personally verify otherwise (applies every time you pick up the gun).

2: Never point the firearm at anything you are not willing to destroy.

3: Keep our finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire.

4: Be sure of your targets and what is beyond them (means know what is downrange).


a fifth rule/courtesy is to unload a firearm and lock open the action every time you pass the firearm to another (open the bolt, lock back the slide, swing out the cylinder, etc)

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witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*