American hostage Thomas Hamill

[billvon 3,111]

>Recent history or isolated incidents should not impact that one bit.

A jumper with 100 jumps, jumping a Katana loaded at 2:1, can indeed talk to another jumper with 200 jumps who wants a Safire loaded at 1.5 to 1 and tell him that it's a deathtrap and he should never load a canopy that heavily at those low jump numbers. But it's unlikely anyone will listen to him; it would be better for him to wait until he has a few hundred jumps on many different canopies before he criticizes others for doing what he himself does.

Similarly, I think that once we go through US prisons in Cuba, Afghanistan and Iraq with a fine tooth comb, to make sure there are no abuses towards prisoners going on, then the rest of the world will take our outrage at mistreatment of US prisoners more seriously. Making a stink now will make it appear that we care far more about an injury to a US civilian captured by thugs than the torture, rape and murder of Iraqi prisoners by US military and contractors.

[rehmwa 2]

specious

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[wmw999 2,586]

Why is that a specious argument? What makes it falsely truthful-looking?

In a world where every inconsistency is pointed out as a sign of hypocrisy or stupidity, a visible consistency is important.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[juanesky 0]

I believe that he thinks it is specious because when the POW's are American or in our same coalition, it seems that no one gets offended by the usual torture of our POW's. But, if the Americans do it, then we are the most vicious of them all., does not seem that it even matters to world's opinion that the US is willing to prosecute this people to the full extent of the law of the law, adding the USMJC, we are still animals.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[billvon 3,111]

>I believe that he thinks it is specious because when the POW's are
> American or in our same coalition, it seems that no one gets
> offended by the usual torture of our POW's. But, if the Americans do
> it, then we are the most vicious of them all.

I am offended by _all_ torture, no matter who does it. If we claim to be against torture and practice it, then we are hypocrites and don't deserve to be listened to. If we can root out the causes of the breakdowns that led to us torturing Iraqis, and fix them so they can't happen again, we will once again be able to say with authority that we condemn any nation that practices torture as a means to an end.

[Beerlight 0]

Quote

>Also goes to show that the Iraqis weren't being nice captors to a
>civilian. ie. gunshot wound.

Agreed, but I think we better be judicious about claiming atrocities against US prisoners for a bit.

Bill,

I'm not condoning torture either. I was just making a candid statement pointing out something I think is relevant.

Truthfully, isolated instances of "abuse" are a given in the particular situation these GI's are all in. There is a pychological term for what they did, I just can't recall it right now.

On the other side, the Iraqis kill or injure their POW"s......

It can/will be America's downfall if the media continues the "over sensationalism" of these few random acts. I remember when I was a 20 y/o in the military.... Young, dumb and full a ____.

Again, I definitely don't agree with what they did, but I DO understand it......

Buck

[Erroll 80]

Quote

And how about your insults for anything US and GWB?.

I bet you had a blast while serving under apartheid

You just don't give up, do you? Once again, your pathetic attempts at raising controversy do not warrant a response.

[juanesky 0]

Glad to know that you call facts as pathetic attempts.

You have proven to thrive on bashing US and GWB..

Didn't you serve in the military under the pro-apartheid regimes?

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[akarunway 1]

Truthfully, isolated instances of "abuse" are a given in the particular situation these GI's are all in. There is a pychological term for what they did, I just can't recall it right now.

PTSS

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[billvon 3,111]

>Truthfully, isolated instances of "abuse" are a given in the particular
> situation these GI's are all in. There is a pychological term for what
> they did, I just can't recall it right now.

>On the other side, the Iraqis kill or injure their POW"s......

Agreed there. Not only do the Iraqis kill and torture POW's, they are much more likely to do it than we are. Hopefully in the future we'll be able to say we don't do it at all.

>It can/will be America's downfall if the media continues the
>"over sensationalism" of these few random acts.

I also agree there, but then again, you could argue that the war would be going much better if the US media were under tight control of the government. There would be fewer protests, politicians wouldn't be under pressure to investigate US military commanders for torture, it would be easier to get troops if new recruits thought no one over there was dying etc. I think we realize that having a free press is both good and bad, and that the good outweighs the bad.

But I'm with you in that I wish they'd stop being so sensational.

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

Not only do the Iraqis kill and torture POW's, they are much more likely to do it than we are. Hopefully in the future we'll be able to say we don't do it at all.

That's the big difference here.

In the first place, I would not call what our soldiers did "torture". It was abuse, certainly, but not torture.

The Iraqiis have run a systematic program of torture for decades. And when Americans are killed, they celebrate in the street, proud of their accomplishement.

Now that these bad soldiers have been uncovered, they will be punished and the practice stopped. No Americans are cheering in the streets over the mistreatment - in fact we're all disgusted, and want it stopped.

Iraqiis thrive on it. We do what we can to stop it.

[PhillyKev 0]

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In the first place, I would not call what our soldiers did "torture".

Sodomizing them with brrom sticks, beating them, and forcing them to engage in homosexual acts is not torture?

Quote

Now that these bad soldiers have been uncovered, they will be punished and the practice stopped.

You mean now that it has gotten press exposure. The Red Cross had been complaining for months of mistreatment there and nothing was done to stop it.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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You mean now that it has gotten press exposure.

And you have to wonder why THIS has not gotten much attention in the US media. You would think that all those left leaning media outlets who are all out to get Bush would be all over these stories.

[Skyrad 0]

What I don't understand is why everyones making a fuss about this man being killed when he's wounded when no one gave a shit about a AC130 taking bloody ages to kill a wounded man in Afghanistan. How can one be a war crime and the other one of the most celibrated internet videos of its time?

http://homepage.mac.com/jbrown2/Terrorism/AC130.html

WTF?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[crzjp20 0]

the pentagon arrested those soldgers over a month ago, and had statrted an investagation a few months ago. That has come out in in the press, but they really dont weant to talk about it.

Congress didnt know, the president did know, but action was being taken.

--------------------------------------------------
Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage.

[billvon 3,111]

>It was abuse, certainly, but not torture.

So -

Electrodes attached to a man's gentials. Raping prisoners with chemical light sticks. Forcing them to masturbate and taking pictures of it. Killing them. Handcuffing them and leading them with a rope around their neck, forcing them to crawl. An elderly woman saddled and ridden like a horse. You'd call all that just abuse, not torture, if it had been done to Jessica Lynch? You have a pretty liberal definiton of abuse.

>Now that these bad soldiers have been uncovered, they will
> be punished and the practice stopped.

It was uncovered in January. One soldier who ended up killing an Iraqi at that prison was just demoted and released from service - no charges. A contractor who killed another one faced no charges. So I hope you're right, but it hasn't happened yet. They've gotten off pretty much scot-free, at least until the media picked up on it. Thank god we have a free media - they sometimes do some good.

>Iraqiis thrive on it.

Torture? Weren't you the one saying "oh, let's liberate the poor Iraqis from Hussein's torture chambers?"

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

>It was abuse, certainly, but not torture.

Electrodes attached to a man's gentials. Raping prisoners with chemical light sticks. Forcing them to masturbate and taking pictures of it. Killing them. Handcuffing them and leading them with a rope around their neck, forcing them to crawl. An elderly woman saddled and ridden like a horse. You'd call all that just abuse, not torture, if it had been done to Jessica Lynch? You have a pretty liberal definiton of abuse.

Okay, allow me to clarify. When I said "abuse" I was referring to the *majority* of the conduct which is alleged.

Of all the things you mention above, the only one that rises to "torture" to me is the sodomy with a light stick. To me, torture implies physical injury.

The electrode thing I understand was all fake, to instill fear, and no live electricity was actually used. That's abuse, but not torture.

As for masturbation, that seems difficult to "force" someone to do. Some of these abuses are alleged by the captors, but no proof exists - they may just be stories. Even if true, it's abuse, but not torture. Heck, some people pay for the privilege of doing this with a prostitute.

Handcuffs and ropes: necessary restraints for violent men who wish to kill you.

Crawling: abuse, not torture.

I haven't heard anything about the woman saddled like a horse...

Don't get me wrong, allmost all of this stuff is wrong. I just don't think that most of it deserves to be called "torture".

[billvon 3,111]

>As for masturbation, that seems difficult to "force" someone to do.

From an interview with Hayder Sabbar Abd:

"She was laughing, and she (female US soldier) put her hands on her breasts," Mr Abd said. "Of course, I couldn't do it. I told them that I couldn't, so they beat me in the stomach and I fell to the ground. The translator said, 'Do it! Do it! It's better than being beaten.' I said, 'How can I do it?' So I put my hand on my penis, just pretending."

>Some of these abuses are alleged by the captors, but no proof
>exists - they may just be stories.

There are pictures of these stories, including one of the man described above with a smiling female US soldier pointing at his groin.

>I just don't think that most of it deserves to be called "torture".

We will just have to differ on that. I would be suprised if you did not describe such actions as torture were they to be performed on US troops.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"I just don't think that most of it deserves to be called "torture". "

Okay, just to set the record straight, where do you draw the line between abuse and torture?

To me, its not the act that defines it, its the purpose.
Abuse would be simply doing inhumane things to a person just for shits and giggles.
If you are treating someone inhumanely for the purpose of coercion, softening up for interrogation etc, its torture.

Its very possible, and even common in some parts of the world, to torture people without any obvious physical act of aggression such as rape, electrocution, or beatings.
Sensory deprivation, sensory overload, sleep deprivation, extended periods of uncomfortable restraint, ritual humiliation, etc, for the purpose of coercion is torture.

I would add to those who might cry 'You just hate America', that I have been supporter of Amnesty International for over 20 years, and we, in the UK are less than clean on this matter.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/3691857.stm

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[juanesky 0]

Let me ask this then, do you or any one non american believes that the US is trying to bring to justice all the people who are at fault in these, and trying to remedy this situation?.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[Skyrad 0]

Not quite sure if I understood the question. I think you're asking if non Americans belive that the US is trying to establish law.

I don't think anyone would really think otherwise seeing as its in the US forces interest to stop people from shooting at them.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"do you or any one non american believes that the US is trying to bring to justice all the people who are at fault in these, and trying to remedy this situation?. "

We all agree this is an apalling situation?

Yes, your (and the UK's) government would be foolish not to pursue the culprits in a public and well documented fashion.
It would have been easier on everyone if the pictures had never surfaced though. Even easier if the (lets agree on 'abuse') abuse had never actually happened.
First stage of damage control, don't let the damage occur in the first place. Our leaders can only now step in at the fourth stage of damage control and try to recover from the effects. We missed the opportunity to control the damage (2nd phase) and can't now mitigate the damage (3rd phase).
Accepting that unorthodox and even questionable methods of intelligence gathering will be deployed in extreme circumstances, who allowed the camera into the prison, and who sanctioned their use?

My biggest fear is not over, what everyone will no doubt agree, are relatively isolated instances of abuse. Its the fact that these pictures make great recruitment posters for any malcontent with a grudge against the coalition nations.
Bear that in mind when we start getting nail bombs going off in malls.
And as I said earlier, us Brits are having similar problems to deal with, and I suspect we also will lose lives over this issue.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Skyrad 0]

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My biggest fear is not over, what everyone will no doubt agree, are relatively isolated instances of abuse. Its the fact that these pictures make great recruitment posters for any malcontent with a grudge against the coalition nations.

Not sure just how isolated this really is...............

http://news.amnesty.org/mav/index/ENGMDE140172004

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Ah Jamille, I did purposefully use the term 'relatively isolated'.
Of course even one instance of this abuse is too many, but I didn't want an "isolated vs widespread and systematic" flame war.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Skyrad 0]

I don't want to see an entrenched slanging match either. I do have concerns though that this is not an isolated event. I don't think that the majority of US service personel would behave in such a manner either but we have similar allegations from Afghanistan and Cuba including deaths, which have also occured in Iraq to prisoners being 'Stressed' by US interrogators.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2825575.stm

I know that the average grunt on the streets is doing the best he/she can under difficult circumstances but what concerns me more is that the 'abuse' happened not just after/during the heat of battle but in a premeditated fashion inside prisons.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca