More Torture/Abuse in Iraq

[Gawain 0]

This is not good news from across the pond. The Royal Military Police's Special Investigation Branch has finished its investigation and charges are pending apparently.

The AP story is on FoxNews.com here, and CNN has its own summary here.

BBC has posted one of the pictures here.

I am deeply troubled by this. I know this isn't representative of ours, or our allies' armed services conduct as a whole, but I am curious as to why people would be driven to do this.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[quade 4]

Important links you'll need in the upcoming days.

http://www.caci.com/
http://www.blackwaterusa.com/

I think we're going to find out that much of what was done was not done by actual U.S. soldiers, but U.S. contractors that work outside the law and UCMJ.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Gawain 0]

Quote

I think we're going to find out that much of what was done was not done by actual U.S. soldiers, but U.S. contractors that work outside the law and UCMJ.

I may be wrong here, and one of our fellow posters who serves could correct me, but I believe that civilian contractors, regardless of function, operating in a capacity under military command is accountable to the UCMJ.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[quade 4]

Nope.

That's only one of several problems with using mercs.

Should be "interesting" to see what happens to them when Iraq gets turned over.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[tcnelson 1]

absolutely unacceptable; i've been in the same conditions and even if a prisoner mouths off, he/she is doing it in flexicuffs and we cannot beat the shit out of low-life assmasters.

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329

[pleifer 0]

The people that are responsible for the abuse are cowards. they Put bags over the heads of the victems cause they are too chicken to look them in the eyes. If we want to fight terroism, we need to provide the roll model. Whatever your view on the prisoners, they are still somebodies, child, father, uncle, ect. And if somebody did that to my relative no matter what they had done I would seek vengence. I always keep in mind, that there is no way to understand their culture, or way of life. but many of them were blindly being led by a vicious dictator, they were defending their country. This is what war is: we invade they defend. They are still human.... well most of them.... but no matter our values as americans should hold strong of innocent till proven guilty, and when quilty they are provided a fair judgement... not cruel and unusual punishment.
My heart and soul goes out to our brothers and sisters in Iraq. But is also goes out to the Iraqi people and may they find peace.

_________________________________________
The Angel of Duh has spoke

[mikkey 0]

Look at the reaction:

"US worse than Saddam, Arabs say"

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/05/01/1083224628877.html

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[juanesky 0]

And of course you believe them

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[TheAnvil 0]

Those doing this truly undermine US efforts as a whole. Sickening.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[quade 4]

Quote

I may be wrong here, and one of our fellow posters who serves could correct me, but I believe that civilian contractors, regardless of function, operating in a capacity under military command is accountable to the UCMJ.

More useful info on the legal status of security contractors (mercs) working in Iraq.

http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=1862126

http://www.wrf.com/publications/publication.asp?id=8644432003

http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/vp_murray/20040423.html

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[kiltboy 0]

Here's another couple of links that are worthwhile.

http://www.arrse.co.uk/html/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=6627#101773

and the mirror story
http://www.mirror.co.uk/

From the first link it does pose some interesting questions about picture quality. Compare the pictures taken in the prison for quality, lighting and the pose of the soldiers etc and these latest ones. It doesn't look like action shots taken at the time.

Another interseting point made was that the pouches of one soldier were undone which I wouldn't expect from trained infantry.

Could this have been staged to sell papers?

David

[AggieDave 6]

Funny how the tone instantly changes to "the torture is Bush's fault" to "aw shucks, that's really too bad...its probably the contractors and not really the British Military."

Man, the bleeding heart liberals turn tail really fast sometimes.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[kallend 2,174]

Why is anyone surprised?

When you wage an illicit war, entered under false pretenses with lies from the very top, you have set the tone for the entire operation.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[crzjp20 0]

Why?

Cause thos troops know the geneva convention, they are trained on it. THey are also aware of the risk of doing such a thing, they could be executed for this. So why is it a shock, cuase our country over te last 100 years has been one of the only countries to play by the rules.

This is a black eye but it will heal. It is a shame, but it will be handled. It is disgraceful, but we will over come it.

BTW this war wasnt illegal... no matter how much you want to say it was....

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Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage.

[kiltboy 0]

From Fox news
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,118669,00.html

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A soldier facing a court-martial (search) for his role in the alleged abuse of Iraqi war prisoners says commanders ignored his requests to set out rules for treating POWs and scolded him for questioning the inmates' harsh treatment.

A soldier facing a court-martial (search) for his role in the alleged abuse of Iraqi war prisoners says commanders ignored his requests to set out rules for treating POWs and scolded him for questioning the inmates' harsh treatment.




Army Reserves Staff Sgt. Ivan "Chip" Frederick (search) wrote that an Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad lacked the humane standards of the Virginia state prison where he worked in civilian life, according to a journal he started after military investigators first questioned him in January.


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He's not a contractor and he worked in a prison, he should have known better. He's a Staff Sergeant so he should have a bit of leadership in him.

As for the UK story compare the picture quality etc. Notice how nobody can be recognised? Every other picture of its type has the soldiers geeking the camera. There are reasons to suspect the authenticity of the recent UK pictures.
The back corner of a 4 tonner can be dark but that picture doesn't have a lighting problem.

Too many things in the UK story look out of place for me right now.

David

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

He's not a contractor and he worked in a prison, he should have known better. He's a Staff Sergeant so he should have a bit of leadership in him.

I never said they were contractors. I was responding to the bleeding heart liberals saying that "oh, since another country's soldiers weren't peachy clean, it must have been the contractor's fault."

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[quade 4]

Just for the record . . . I -never- said (or even suggested) any of the abuse was GWB's fault.

It's a war. People do bad things.

If, as in the case of WWII, there is an official policy to do bad things, then GWB would be at fault, but I don't think that even the strongest GWB detractors would suggest that sort of thing is happening.

There -are- reasons we have contractors and other governments do -certain- things though and I go back and forth on the ethics of that. It's a very difficult situation.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[lawrocket 3]

Unfortunately, I think the abusive assholes just lost it for us.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[quade 4]

Oh, no doubt about it.

In the eyes of the Arab community it will be very difficult for them to separate official policy from that of a few rouge individuals -- especially in light of what they might be used to from the old leaders.

One -might- be able to place a certain amount of blame on foolish pride at thinking we could pull this off with a specific number of US troops and then, when push came to shove, we suplimented that with security contractors not beholding to "our" rules.

In the words of Baby Herman (from Roger Rabbit), "This whole thing stinks like yesterday's diapers."

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver