markd_nscr986 0 #26 April 30, 2004 I reiterate.....isolated......given a sampling of family and friends that I have over there that type of behaviour would never be tolerated under any circumstance!!Now unfortunately there are a small number of sadists in the US armed forces just as there are in the British ,French,Russian,German army etc.You obviously dont know any US military people personally or you would probably realize that there is no tip to the iceberg.I cant help but think how Saddam would have treated them for alleged infractions!Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,589 #27 April 30, 2004 I prefer to keep my head in the clouds. To those who wanna "git some whoopass" and "nuke'em into the stone age" and "make them suffer" Is this what you were talking about? Does this make the US superior in any way? It's crap. This is disgusting, and thinking or saying it's acceptable is disgusting, and talking about it as a possible thing that would be fun to do is disgusting. It's one thing to be violent. The abuse of power that has been given to you is terrible; it cheapens the whole system that granted you that power in the first place. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #28 April 30, 2004 Well, these photographs were taken at one of 3 major prisons in Iraq, this one holds about 4,500 prisoners. There's a link to another incident in Afghanistan further up the thread where 2 prisoners died during questioning, and I recall a previous hearing over a high ranking officer conducting mock executions for info. It was discussed on the forum at length at the time. Isolated? No, I don't think so, but I don't actually believe this is indicative of typical behaviour either. I do believe this is extremely damaging, not only to the quest for peace in Iraq, but also to extremists who will target civilians elsewhere. "I cant help but think how Saddam would have treated them for alleged infractions!" That still doesn't make it right.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markd_nscr986 0 #29 April 30, 2004 You're right about that.......SAS wouldn't leave any evidence of any kind other than the prisoners body and sometimes....not even that!!And yes it does give you pause why these idiots would leave a trail a blind man could followMarc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kiltboy 0 #30 April 30, 2004 The republican and loyalist groups are much better at the torture you allude to. The police arrest suspects in N. Ireland and the mainland UK and they are charged under terrorism legislation. There are plenty of allegations of collusion (sp) in N. Ireland but I've not heard anything regarding torture by the SAS. Do you have any sources to back it up? David Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #31 April 30, 2004 Big difference between Tactical Questioning and Wiring someone up to the mains, forcing them into sexual positions with other men. While white noise and stress posistions and sleep deprevation are used this is a new order of sick. What the British interogators have done to terrorists under interogation is nothing compared to what their own CAT 'interogator' do.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #32 April 30, 2004 Ahh Wendy. I wish my head were in the clouds. I've seen too much to think otherwise - but thankfully, I'm aware that there are some people that will always do the right thing - regardless of the cost. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #33 April 30, 2004 If confirmed, these soldiers should be punished to the full extent of military law. Bottom line! Our standards of action during wartime must be maintained. I can't believe, however, all the talk about this being wide-spread. I don’t buy into the “see, I told you the US military was corrupt and evil and, therefore, the war is criminal and unjust” conspiracy theories. I've served close to 2 years in 3 different combat/hostile-fire zones where prisoners were taken and interrogated (some by my team). I have never seen any deviation from the Geneva Convention committed by US military. I can't believe that this war is that much different from all the others. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen. I'm just saying that it is obviously isolated and should be dealt with appropriately. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markd_nscr986 0 #34 April 30, 2004 Bloody hell.....I thought it was common knowledge over there!My sources are private and "well placed" but just for a "small sampling" google search on SAS torture N ireland and you will see.....Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Faber 0 #35 April 30, 2004 If US wants to keep their face up front there "soldiers" must be faced by their crime right away. Torture must give prisson,in a loooooooooong time,perhaps these soldies should face trial in Iraqe... THIS WILL LEAD to more TERRO,and TORTURE to thouse who are getting kidnaped down there...and perhaps round the world I HOPE that US,has the balls to do whith theese scums as they do whith terroists.. IF not,USA has lost its face,and cannot be trusted in war again.peiod what a sad thing to see,the nation that should release the torturede people,has done this.Its sad for the rest of the soldiers that are doing a great job. Stay safe Stefan Faber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #36 April 30, 2004 Mark, do you want to give some specific links on that, the first page of google didn't give any substantial reports, apart from the INA's website, which is kinda slanted against the Brits, understandably. Pajarito, "I don’t buy into the “see, I told you the US military was corrupt and evil and, therefore, the war is criminal and unjust” " It hasn't come to that yet, fortunately the debate here has been relatively civilised so far.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markd_nscr986 0 #37 April 30, 2004 Ditto,P.....Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Faber 0 #38 April 30, 2004 Quotethese soldiers should be punished to the full extent of military law. if not,the US military cant be trusted.US must show the world that theese dickheads cant go un punishmented by stuff like this. US troops has a good rep. out there(no matter how much many of us dont agree in all the actions they has to take,there fore we blame your goverment),i want to belive that US troops them self wants to punish these persons. Stay safe Stefan Faber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kiltboy 0 #39 April 30, 2004 No not common knowledge and I'm pretty cynical that its not true. Torture doesn't work as a way of gaining useful intelligence. The SAS have been used for surveillance and gathering intel but I don't see them engaging in torture. The SAS are soldiers not intelligence specialists so I could see interrogations being conducted by special branch and the intelligence services (the same folks that ran steak knife) after they had been arrested. I did a google search and came up pretty much blank except for the Irish national slant which is pretty much propaganda. I was trying to find something semi-independant. I still say the terrorist groups are way beyond anything that was depicted in the pictures from Iraq. Crucifiction, punishment beatings and shootings, torture of believed informants and summary executions. David Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #40 April 30, 2004 Quoteif not,the US military cant be trusted.US must show the world that theese dickheads cant go un punishmented by stuff like this. US troops has a good rep. out there(no matter how much many of us dont agree in all the actions they has to take,there fore we blame your goverment),i want to belive that US troops them self wants to punish these persons. Absolutely. If this is confirmed, the soldiers that did it should be tried by the military and, if convicted, sent to "break big rocks into little rocks" for a very long time. I'm absolutely positive that this will occur. Military law is very strict and unforgiving. The US will maintain its reputation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #41 April 30, 2004 Re: Punishment. It was on the radio this morning that 6 soldiers were already in detention and that the General had been relieved of command/discaplined. Curiously they also had a Red Cross representative in the studio with them who was at that jail 3 weeks ago who said it was a different General in command back then... these photo's are supposed to orriginate from Nov/Dec so would be the other General, not the one being punished. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Faber 0 #42 April 30, 2004 Quote Military law is very strict and unforgiving. The US will maintain its reputation. im happy to be confirmed in my belif of US military,but they must hurry up before someone will use it against them..,these people need to be trofees for what US dont want in their military. Stay safe Stefan Faber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #43 April 30, 2004 QuoteQuoteIt must suck to assume that people are evil. People are evil. Or opportunistic. Those that don't fall into one of those 2 groups are rare. Other than most everybody considers themselves to be the exception to the rule. Must be hard to even go to the DZ with all these evil types everywhere. I believe people are basically decent, if not distracted at times. The exceptions to the rule are therefore even more notable due to the contrast. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #44 April 30, 2004 QuoteIf confirmed, these soldiers should be punished to the full extent of military law. Bottom line! Our standards of action during wartime must be maintained. I can't believe, however, all the talk about this being wide-spread. I don’t buy into the “see, I told you the US military was corrupt and evil and, therefore, the war is criminal and unjust” conspiracy theories. I've served close to 2 years in 3 different combat/hostile-fire zones where prisoners were taken and interrogated (some by my team). I have never seen any deviation from the Geneva Convention committed by US military. I can't believe that this war is that much different from all the others. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen. I'm just saying that it is obviously isolated and should be dealt with appropriately. Standards of behavior are set at the top in any organization. Why should these soldiers be punished any more than their C in C who is in violation of the Geneva Conventions at Camp X-Ray?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #45 April 30, 2004 QuoteStandards of behavior are set at the top in any organization. Why should these soldiers be punished any more than their C in C who is in violation of the Geneva Conventions at Camp X-Ray? Do you have "credible" proof that torture is taking place at Camp X-Ray? Also, they don't fall under the Geneva Convention so it's not rellevant. In keeping within the context of this discussion, however, I believe it was mentioned that the C in C of the unit in question was relieved of duty and the soldiers arrested. The C in C is in fact responsible and, if this is confirmed, guilty of not controlling his troops appropriately (incompetent). That doesn't necessarily mean that he's also guilty of torture and breaking the Geneva Convention. That is, if he didn't know about it. If he did, then he is as guilty as they are and should be punished accordingly. We, however, don't know those details so everything we're saying is pure speculation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #46 April 30, 2004 Could you kindly explain to an alien what it means: C in C? thx in advance dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #47 April 30, 2004 Quote Could you kindly explain to an alien what it means: C in C? thx in advance I guess he's not going to reply. It means Commander in Charge. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #48 April 30, 2004 What's really kind of screwed up about this is that this incident was discovered a month ago and the perpetrators were removed from duty. No charges were filed against them until the 60 minutes piece. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #49 April 30, 2004 QuoteWhat's really kind of screwed up about this is that this incident was discovered a month ago and the perpetrators were removed from duty. No charges were filed against them until the 60 minutes piece. There goes more conspiracy theory. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #50 April 30, 2004 danke ! dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
