For Those who Want Canadian Healthcare

[lawrocket 3]

A Canadian hospital didn't treat a man with appendicitis because he didn't have his insurance card. Death ensues.

So, the National Health Care system in Canada is what we want. I see that there is a requirement to treat emergency cases in Canada, just like in America (see 42 U.S.C. section 1395dd), only in America they have to do a screening, which maybe you don't in Canada.

So, here may be a statistical outlier. But, the situation appears from it that you better have your card and/or pay for care up front and hope the government reimburses you. Is that a system America wants? The Canadian hospital claims it just "followed the rules."

http://www.canada.com/health/story.html?id=15C1651B-B318-4CAB-BE39-F605E466B32B

***
Quebec man dies after he forgets health card and is forced to return home

Canadian Press

Friday, April 23, 2004

MONTREAL (CP) - A 21-year-old man died of appendicitis after he was refused treatment at an emergency clinic because he didn't have his provincial health card with him.

Gerald Augustin complained of stomach pains on Thursday but the receptionist at the St-Andre medical centre told him he had to return home to get his health card. He didn't make it back to the clinic in Montreal's east end.

About four hours later, a friend alerted police and called an ambulance for the man, who had a fatal attack of appendicitis in his apartment. He was pronounced dead in hospital.

Rouslene Augustin, administrator at the St-Andre clinic, said the man didn't appear to have any urgent symptoms when he came to the clinic.

"If this guy was an emergency case, we would accept him if he had his card or not," she said.

"I don't see what we did wrong. I'm not defending the clinic, we just followed the rules."

Health Department spokesman Dr. Marc Giroux said clinics are obligated to provide service for emergencies even if no medicare card is produced.

"In the case of an emergency, the medicare card is not necessary," he said.

In non-emergency situations, patients must provide payment upfront and are later reimbursed by the provincial health insurance board.

Esther Noel said she wonders if her brother was aware he could have paid for medical attention.

"Maybe they did not say to him you have to pay," she said.

Quebec Health Minister Philippe Couillard said it's too soon to say if anyone is to blame for the man's death.

"Was the person or was the person not presenting obvious symptoms of emergency, when he presented himself at the clinic?" he asked.

"This has to be known and it will be known after the inquiry."

The provincial coroner's office has called an inquiry. The coroner has asked police to determine if Augustin had been injured in a criminal act in the past few days.

© Copyright 2004 The Canadian Press

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[FallRate 0]

Everytime the issue of socialized medicine comes up I think of standing in line at the BMV for 45 minutes and then being told why it is I have to leave and get some other document to get my license renewed.

Speaking of the BMV (Ohio)...I lost my license somewhere and had to get a new one. I went in with what I thought was my birth certificate. After 45 minutes or so the misanthrope on the other side of the counter told me that it wasn't a genuine birth certificate and that I would have to get ahold of the county I was born in to get a copy. Fine. I do this and go back a couple of weeks later. Then, after showing my credentials and paying my fee, I started walking over to the chair where the license pictures are taken. I was then told that there was no need, and before I could figure out what was going on, I was handed a new license with my original picture on it. It's a digital pic so they just keep it on file. So why was it they couldn't just look it up and look at me and give me a copy the first time!?

FallRate

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Quote

Everytime the issue of socialized medicine comes up I think of standing in line at the BMV for 45 minutes and then being told why it is I have to leave and get some other document to get my license renewed.

Speaking of the BMV (Ohio)...I lost my license somewhere and had to get a new one. I went in with what I thought was my birth certificate. After 45 minutes or so the misanthrope on the other side of the counter told me that it wasn't a genuine birth certificate and that I would have to get ahold of the county I was born in to get a copy. Fine. I do this and go back a couple of weeks later. Then, after showing my credentials and paying my fee, I started walking over to the chair where the license pictures are taken. I was then told that there was no need, and before I could figure out what was going on, I was handed a new license with my original picture on it. It's a digital pic so they just keep it on file. So why was it they couldn't just look it up and look at me and give me a copy the first time!?

FallRate

Because they're cynical, vindictive, spiteful bureaucrat pieces of shit! That's why.

The funny thing about when people in the U.S. (mostly it comes from democrats and other liberals) squawk about how Canada has it so much better than we do because of their socialized medicine, is that Canada's system, from what I've heard and read, is so FUCKED that it's unbelievable, and Canadians come HERE to get health care because they aren't told they have to WAIT for a YEAR to get a friggin' MRI!

Yes, that was part of what I heard. The Canadian health care system is so backed-up and understaffed that there are not enough doctors and nurses to go around -- part of what comes when people don't want to spend 12 years in school learning to be a doctor and then make shit for money in a socialized-care system. The quality of care, from what I hear, stinks, and that's if you can GET care in a timely fashion.

I don't live in Canada. I'd appreciate if some of our Canadian posters would write in about what they've experienced in their own system.

If it's anything like the billion dollar gun registry boondoggle (which was supposed to cost a few million), it's gotta be a shambles.
-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[Casurf1978 0]

I wouldn't blame it on their health care system. Sounds like someone f-ed up, and a person died. It happens here in the States too. How many times has a doctor removed the wrong limb, or left an instrument in a person. It happens. Saw a story on TV where one left an instrument in this lady for over 2 years. Even though she was in pain other doctors dismissed it, until one took an X-Ray. I've heard some pretty horrible stories about HMOs, some that make you wonder if our system is the best. I have coverage through my employer, but when a friend wanted to get the same coverage for himself he was denied. He's self employed. On that note, I wonder could a health insurance company deny a skydiver coverage?

[Nightingale 0]

They can't/won't deny coverage just because someone skydives...

they can, however, exclude all skydiving related injuries.

read your policy carefully.

[Remster 30]

Quote

come HERE to get health care because they aren't told they have to WAIT for a YEAR to get a friggin' MRI!

Yes, that was part of what I heard.

Dont repeat what you hear as gospel.

I had weird headhackes last month, went to the hospital and got a CT scane the same day.

My wife needed a CT too and had it the same day she went to the hospital early this year.

My dad go a MRI when he was rushed to the hospital 2 year ago the same day he was admited.

Remster

[PhillyKev 0]

People are denied care here as well. It's rare, but it happens. Just like I'm sure this incident was a rare mistake.

At the same time, here, someone who doesn't have insurance will be treated, and then who pays the bill? If they don't, guess who does. Everyone else. We already have socialized medicine, except it's those of us who pay health insurance premiums subsidizing those who don't. And since those who don't can't see doctors for preventative care, or minor things, they go to the emergency room for everything, which is much more expensive. It would be cheaper for us to subsicize a doctor visit then an emergency room visit.

I think everyone should get routine health care, paid for by taxes. That means yearly check ups and doctor's care for illnesses and injury. Then those of us who can afford a higher level of service, can still carry insurance for that or pay for it out of pocket.

It would be cheaper in the long run.

[AndyMan 7]

Why is this different at all than the US?

Man shows up at Hospital with no insurance. Hospital deems he is not critically ill, his case is not an emergency. Hospital tells him to go home. He later dies.

This sounds exactly the same way the American system works. If you don't have proof of insurance, they only treat you in an emergency.

Why is that this is the damnation of the Canadian system, but happens frequently with the US one?

_Am

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You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

from what I've heard and read, is so FUCKED that it's unbelievable, and Canadians come HERE to get health care because they aren't told they have to WAIT for a YEAR to get a friggin' MRI!

Don't believe everything you read. When I had an MRI for my knee in Canada, I waited 4 days. When I had an MRI for my ankle in Chicago, I waited 14 days.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[turtlespeed 226]

They probably thought he supported the US.

Way to go Northerly brethren! Decrease the surplus population!

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[AndyMan 7]

I really wish someone would have answered this question:

Quote

Why is that this is the damnation of the Canadian system, but happens frequently with the US one?

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[kelpdiver 2]

This particular case is more about execution (and bad luck) than the process in place. It could easily have happened here, esp at a hospital that is unable or unwilling to confirm insurance on the computer.

Appendicitis can be subtle pains up until the point where it goes. I was [apparently] symptomatic for about 8 weeks and then one night I'm suddenly puking and then dry heaving all night. I thought I had food poisoning, called the night advice nurse, and then waited until 8am to trudge over to the school hospital. They took blood and put me on IV and I quickly felt almost good - the dehydration was what had me down. Fortunately the elevated white count and the physical examination indicated the problem and I was under the knife less than 3 hours later. But I didn't have that much time to spare.

[Nightingale 0]

My cousin Danny just had his appendix out on Friday.

He walked into the doctor's office without his insurance card (I know this because my aunt was yelling at him about it when I called him). He goes to school about three hours from where his parents live, and he just didn't have the card with him.

He saw the doc anyway. The doctor said they'd just bill him and he and his parents could work things out with the insurance. Doc arranged for him to get to the hospital and he had his appendix out within a few hours.

Danny told me "my side hurt and I had a bit of a fever... I didn't think it was that serious. didn't feel all that sick. only reason I went to the doctor at all was because my coach made me."

I don't want to think what could've happened if the doctor had turned him away because he didn't have his insurance card.

[lawrocket 3]

Quote

It could easily have happened here, esp at a hospital that is unable or unwilling to confirm insurance on the computer.

Not under Federal Law. Under the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act, anybody who reports to an emergency room with a complaint MUST receive a screening. This person cannot be discharged or transferred to another hospital until the person is deemed to be stable, regardless of whether or not they are insured.

Here, it appears that the Canadian ER did not, or did not have to, perform a screen on the boy. No insurance card? He was "dumped" until he could get his card or show proof of insurance.

My opinion is that a national health care system could work well for sniffles and everyday general practice. But when the fit hits the shan, the American system is superior. If you're in a world of hurt, most would prefer the quality and availability of the US system.

It's why some of my wife's friends traveled to the US for treatment. A couple fo them had serious issues that the Spanish system was ill-equipped to handle. It was good for colds and infections, but not for the tough issues.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

Here, it appears that the Canadian ER did not, or did not have to, perform a screen on the boy. No insurance card? He was "dumped" until he could get his card or show proof of insurance.

I think you need to re-read the article you posted.

Here, I'll even quote it for you:

Quote

Rouslene Augustin, administrator at the St-Andre clinic, said the man didn't appear to have any urgent symptoms when he came to the clinic.

"If this guy was an emergency case, we would accept him if he had his card or not," she said.

Health Department spokesman Dr. Marc Giroux said clinics are obligated to provide service for emergencies even if no medicare card is produced.

"In the case of an emergency, the medicare card is not necessary," he said.

Just in case you missed it, the patient WAS evaluated. The patient WAS deemed "stable". Obviously the determination was in error, but its hardly the case that the hospital blankly refused treatment like you're suggesting.

Quote

It's why some of my wife's friends traveled to the US for treatment. A couple fo them had serious issues that the Spanish system was ill-equipped to handle.

I thought you were talking about the innadequacies in Canada's system, not Spain's?

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[wmw999 2,600]

A 'screening' is undoubtedly what he received, and it was not a good one.

I live in Houston, and we get periodic stories about people who are screened and transferred to charity hospitals (i.e. need for care was not 'urgent' enough), and then died on the way because their condition turned out to be worse than thought.

There are advantages to both, especially if you're rich or have good insurance. If you're not, I honestly think that some sort of subsidy of at least regular health care would be good. We had a member of my extended family who went o the emergency room at our biggest public hospital for everything. Because they had to see her.
I'm sure it wasn't cheap forthe health care system.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Quote

It could easily have happened here, esp at a hospital that is unable or unwilling to confirm insurance on the computer.

Not under Federal Law. Under the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act, anybody who reports to an emergency room with a complaint MUST receive a screening. This person cannot be discharged or transferred to another hospital until the person is deemed to be stable, regardless of whether or not they are insured.

Eventually. If he was insistent, and felt badly enough to stick around. Otherwise they could easily convince him to get lie down and stay off the sauce for a bit, and come back tomorrow if it was still bothering him. The ER in the US is no picnic for those that are in considerable pain, but not in immediate need of assistence.

When I left the college hospital for the surgical one, I had no problem walking out the door, onto a taxi, and into the next hospital. I felt just fine - if I were the type that was afraid of doctors I could easily have rationalized to myself that I was safer running home.