American hero revisited

[base283 0]

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Thankfully you are the only one to even attempt to answer. does anybody have any more insight on the denial?

Michele: On which denial - OBL's?

Yes, OBL, I found it really strange while researching the quote from OBL denial that there was very little to be found on google, 7 hits on Google for “Osama Bin Laden, Denial” only on was exactly what I was searching for but I got a “ file not found”. Really strange.
Your answer doesn´t fit the MO of terrorists. They normally claim responsibility (AFAIK).

Michele: Can you lay out what you understand is the Euroview?
The main Euroview (from my understanding) is that the US is not answering questions and in some cases lying. this is leading to the conspiracy theories IMHO. This is being used to fuel the fire of USA being on the quest for oil missions to supply the SUV´s, ( the gulf war, etc)
As a strike against the credibility of the US ( I think) was the denying of flying out OBL´s family on the days successive to the attacks when all other flights were prohibited. This seems a major point, along with The US military C130 flying about which is rumored to have either a remote control system for airliners, or for a death ray thingy, and the crash into the pentagon which destroyed a section that was unoccupied and match a scenario proposed by a gov study some 3yrs (?) earlier.
Here I am an American, in Germany caught between 2 propaganda machines The news I see is different from yours.

Michele: I think people - including myself - believe you are stating *your* position. Maybe it's the languaging of the posts, but I sure thought you were advancing a position which slammed the Jews. If that's not the case, as you stated, then I apologize.

Here is the link I took the quote from: http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/taketwo.html
I haven´t stated any position other than I think GW string pullers are guilty of murder

The Germans, at least, say nothing about the jews, All Nazi media and memorabila (unless family heirlooms displayed in the home) are banned except for educational venues.

Michele: So, what are your questions specifically? Not that I can answer them, but I would be interested in knowing your questions precisely.

From my previous post on this thread
OBL denied being a part of the 9-11 attack. what gives on that? (I have no clue).
why did they fly out his family?
What was the modified military c130 doing flying around in the area at the time of the collisions?
These are the questions that interest me the most just to compare it to the Euroview.
Take care,
space

[dgskydive 0]

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bin Laden said both he and al Qaida had 'nothing to do with the terrorist attacks in America' and that 'hard-line Jewish organizations might be involved…'"

Old news. How could anyone believe it when he said that. He hates the Jews as much (if not more then) the US. Of course he would lie and blame them. He woudl have loved nothing more then to watch us blow the shit out of the Jews.

I don't get it. Why do people want to blame the U.S. for what this monster did? Europeans sit back with this "superior addituded" Like they have neve done any wrong. I will tell you what is wrong. To sit back and watch shitty things happen to people all over the world! That is shitty! If Europe would stop critizing what the U.S. does and took a more active role in the world. Things would get better. Funny who so many terrorists live in Germany, France, even the U.K. Why do they go there?

Europe has had more monsters come out of there then almost anywhere. You would think they would be more sympathetic towards people in trouble and the horrors that the Talabin and terrorists as a whole bring on the world.

You can listen to theories all day long about GWB and the Bin Ladens. That is all it is. Theories. To think that the President of the U.S would "let" this happen would be ridiculous! In this day and age everyone wants to point a finger.

Look at the history of the Middle East people. They have been fighting and killing each other since the beginning of time. There is more blood in that sand and dirt then you could ever imagine. To this day they would rather kill someone to make a point then to actually make a point.

I will admit that the reasons we where given to go in to Iraq where wrong. Where are the WMD? That does upset me. I would have rather them said "Hey, this guy is a murder, this guy is a bad influence on the rest of the Middle East, this guy massacres his own people. We are going to take him out of power and put in a new Govt. that will act responsible and not turn to torture and murder to keep there peopl in line. Put in a new Govt. that doesn't allow for it;s presidents sons to Kidnap, rape and maim women they see wlaking down the street. These guys used to take there Olympic athletes that lost and torture and kill them.

Stop bleeding your hearts out for a murderer and his sons! Stop bleeding your hearts out for OBL.

I do feel sorry for the innocents that are being killed. That is a very dirty part of war! I will tell you this. As a former member of the U.S. Army and veteran of the first Gulf War. Those bastards over there have no guilt when it comes to killing there own and tryint to make it seem like it was us that did it. Get it in you rheads people something is wrong with that part of the world!

Dom

[base283 0]

Very well put!!!
take care,
space

[Michele 1]

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Michele: On which denial - OBL's?

Yes, OBL, I found it really strange while researching the quote from OBL denial that there was very little to be found on google, 7 hits on Google for “Osama Bin Laden, Denial” only on was exactly what I was searching for but I got a “ file not found”. Really strange.
Your answer doesn't fit the MO of terrorists. They normally claim responsibility (AFAIK).

(I looked on Google, and changed your search parameters slightly to:
"bin Ladin denies involvement"
Google: 568 hits
MSN: 735 hits
I've found that if I'm searching for something, sometimes changing language yeilds better results...thus the liberty I took with your parameters...)

It doesn't matter about what the typical MO of terrorists are. Let's look at OBL and AQ only, and see if there's a pattern.

1992: Bomb attack on a hotel in Yemen. No claim of responsibility.
1993: WTC #1: No claim of responsibility.
1993: Somalia: No claim of responsibility.
(1994: Citizenship revoked)
1995: WTC mastermind (Ramzi Yousef) arrested. Linked to OBL.
1995: Assassination attempt on Egypt's Hosni Mubarak, Addis Ababa. No claim of responsibility.
1995: Truck bombing in US operated Saudi National Guard training center, Riyadh. No claim of responsibility; OBL praises action. (Subsequent to arrest and prior to beheading by Saudis, the 4 accused make a confession. In the confession, they indicate they've read OBL's communiqués).
1996: Khobar Towers bombing. No claim of responsibility, subsequent investigation does not clearly link OBL to action.
(1996: Fatwah declared)
(1998: OBL issues joint declaration with Al Jihad, Jihad Movement in Bangladesh, and Jama'at ul Ulema e Pakistan under banner of World Islamic Front, furthering the fatwah issued in 1996)
1998: Kenya (Nairobi) and Tanzania (Dar es Salaam). No claim of responsibility. Clearly linked.
1998: Embassies in Kenya/Tanzania bombed; No claim of responsibility. Clearly linked.
1999: Rockets fired at US and UN offices in Islamabad. No responsibility claimed. Mullah Omar gives statement warning of "surprises" should the US and UN continue with plan to implement economic sanctions (which went into effect 2 days after this incident).
2000: Suspect arrested with connection to Millennium bomb plot of LAX, California.
2000: Plot to kill Philippines president Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo foiled, connected to OBl.
2000: USS Cole attacked in Yemeni port. No claim of responsibility.
2001: WTC #2...

What happened just prior to OBL making his statement of denial was the freezing of many many sources of financing for OBL.

In any event, you can see from the above that OBL regularly did not claim responsibility for attacks...so his denial, when it happened, came as no surprise to me. Link to entire text of the part which you quoted (for people to read should they want...)

However, here is an excerpt from a video tape where OBL does indeed claim responsibility for the 9/11 attack.
" we calculated in advance the number of casualties from the enemy, who would be killed based on the position of the tower. We calculated that the floors that would be hit would be three or four floors. I was the most optimistic of them all. (...Inaudible...) due to my experience in this field, I was thinking that the fire from the gas in the plane would melt the iron structure of the building and collapse the area where the plane hit and all the floors above it only. This is all that we had hoped for.

Shaykh: Allah be praised.

UBL: We were at (...inaudible...) when the event took place. We had notification since the previous Thursday that the event would take place that day. We had finished our work that day and had the radio on. It was 5:30 p.m. our time. I was sitting with Dr. Ahmad Abu-al-((Khair)). Immediately, we heard the news that a plane had hit the World Trade Center. We turned the radio station to the news from Washington. The news continued and no mention of the attack until the end. At the end of the newscast, they reported that a plane just hit the World Trade Center.

Shaykh: Allah be praised.

UBL: After a little while, they announced that another plane had hit the World Trade Center. The brothers who heard the news were overjoyed by it.

Shaykh: I listened to the news and I was sitting. We didn't...we were not thinking about anything, and all of a sudden, Allah willing, we were talking about how come we didn't have anything, and all of a sudden the news came and everyone was overjoyed and everyone until the next day, in the morning, was talking about what was happening and we stayed until four o'clock, listening to the news every time a little bit different, everyone was very joyous and saying "Allah is great," "Allah is great," "We are thankful to Allah," "Praise Allah." And I was happy for the happiness of my brothers. That day the congratulations were coming on the phone non-stop. The mother was receiving phone calls continuously. Thank Allah. Allah is great, praise be to Allah."

Does the above help you understand why I was so negative in my comments to you when you posted that?

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Michele: Can you lay out what you understand is the Euroview?
The main Euroview (from my understanding) is that the US is not answering questions and in some cases lying. this is leading to the conspiracy theories IMHO. This is being used to fuel the fire of USA being on the quest for oil missions to supply the SUV´s, ( the gulf war, etc)
As a strike against the credibility of the US ( I think) was the denying of flying out OBL´s family on the days successive to the attacks when all other flights were prohibited. This seems a major point, along with The US military C130 flying about which is rumored to have either a remote control system for airliners, or for a death ray thingy, and the crash into the pentagon which destroyed a section that was unoccupied and match a scenario proposed by a gov study some 3yrs (?) earlier.

I'm not sure I know where to start with this part.

OBL was stripped of his Saudi citizenship back in the 1994. His family disowned him and he is the 17th child in a total of 52. OBL's father was a selfmade construction guru/billionaire, and was very close with the Saudi royal family. It makes sense that his family - with whom he had no contact - was taken away from the country, as the name "bin Ladin" was now a significant target, tainted by the actions of this particular son. It was for safety, given the mood of the community.

Re: the Pentagon strike being in a section that was unoccupied, I don't think the dead agree with that. It was occupied. People died a horrible death.

As for the scenario being studied several years earlier, the Pentagon was either completing - or had just completed - a restoration and refurbishing. Maybe that's where the speculative "study" (which I never heard of, and cannot find anything on the 'net about it) comes from.

Furthermore, commercial and pleasure aircraft were grounded, but some planes still were flying - all military, and escorted flights occurred. As for "US military C130 flying about which is rumored to have either a remote control system for airliners, or for a death ray thingy", I have no idea what is on those aircraft, deathray thingy or not. I do know that there were tremendous numbers of patrols flying around at that time, so it doesn't surprise me there was a C130 spotted. I spotted many many different types of planes here on the coast of CA...

(Honestly, that sounds like so much conspiracy crappola, but I've tried to answer it as best I can.)

(A personal note...I was so aware of the quiet at night during that time that it was somewhat spooky....)

As for the Administration lying, I sincerely doubt that lying (deliberate, intentional, material misleading while knowing the truth) happened. There is lots of fingerpointing going on, but that's to be expected, 2 1/2 years later. There's information we have now that wasn't apparent then, and so yes, those who look for those things will exploit them when they become available. That's a sad part of America, and an even sadder part of the "euroview" position on all of this.

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Here I am an American, in Germany caught between 2 propaganda machines The news I see is different from yours.

Maybe the mainstream news is different, but I source from lots of places...and so should everyone. Please don't assume that I only watch one particular TV station.

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Michele: I think people - including myself - believe you are stating *your* position. Maybe it's the languaging of the posts, but I sure thought you were advancing a position which slammed the Jews. If that's not the case, as you stated, then I apologize.

Here is the link I took the quote from: http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/taketwo.html
I haven´t stated any position other than I think GW string pullers are guilty of murder

I see. My difficulty lies in that I don't see GW or the administration as guilty of murder.

There are as many conspiracy theories as there are people.

When I was younger, I read a lot about (IIRC) the TLC - Tri Lateral Commission - which was supposed to be a secret group including the Rockefellers and other luminaries who were planning on taking over the world, and were beyond the touch of any government, and were in fact the string pullers.

I read a ton about alien abduction, and how the aliens were seeding human women for a supreme race.

I read a ton about how we didn't land on the moon, how the world was flat, and how there were little green men.

I read a ton about the Neo Nazi stuff about the Zionist control of the world's finances.

I read about the men who claimed they were raised as assassins for the government, but miraculously escaped and hadn't yet been caught, even though they were telling their story far and wide.

And then it occurred to me: all of these theories are about world domination, and they are all really really different but with the same aim. They all point out the basic insecurity that a person is not in control of their life, that their mortality is looming, and that this is an attempt to establish responsibility on someone/something other than themselves for the condition of their lives and their perceived inability to effect events.

The human mind is a powerful thing...but it's still relatively unexplored, and relatively not understood. But I remain fascinated by it nonetheless.

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The Germans, at least, say nothing about the jews, All Nazi media and memorabila (unless family heirlooms displayed in the home) are banned except for educational venues.

There are no Neo Nazis in Germany? No demonstrations of flags, no pamphlets, no marches?

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Michele: So, what are your questions specifically? Not that I can answer them, but I would be interested in knowing your questions precisely.

From my previous post on this thread
OBL denied being a part of the 9-11 attack. what gives on that? (I have no clue).
why did they fly out his family?
What was the modified military c130 doing flying around in the area at the time of the collisions?
These are the questions that interest me the most just to compare it to the Euroview.

I tried to show OBL doesn't claim responsibility, as part of an MO. He handles it differently than, say, the PLO, Hamas, IRA, or whomever.
I don't have a clue about the C130, modified or not. Can't find anything to even begin to think about - let alone formulate an opinion - on it, it's presence, it's goal, or it's deathray.

Thanks, btw, for your patience in my response. I started it yesterday, but got busy and wasn't able to give it my full attention. I hope I've given you what you're looking for, but also remember that, as with anything, there are as many opinions as there are people.

Interesting discussion...

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~