Bush and the Bin Laden family

[fudd 0]

I see people now are trying to connect Kerry with terrorist organistations. Do you really wanna go there?
Let see, who helped 24 members of the Bin Laden family to escape from the US back to Saudia Arabia?
NY-times article here
They probably didn't have any information of Osama anyway, right. Or is it just nice to be friends of the president?

Why did protesters in Spain in June 2001 have signs reading "Bush Taliban" ?
BBC story here

Why did Taliban officials visit Texas in 1997.
Who the hell are Unocal?

There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

[chuteless 1]

When the Twin Towers were attacked, George Bush Sr was in a hotel not far away, meeting with family members of Bib Laden.

[kmcguffee 0]

Here is an interesting article:
http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article328231.ece

Looks to me like you guys should worry about your own country (Norway) funding terrorism and stop fretting over the US.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[andybr6 0]

Considering American foreign policy we have to fret about the US. As you are the only super-power in the world and have a direct influence over global issues; are you suprised that other countries are worried about who becomes president? We will stop being concerned when you get a president who is'nt a criminal, adulterer, alcholic or downright stupid; and when America starts listening to the views of other countries!

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"All men can fly, but sadly, only in one direction"

[AggieDave 6]

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We will stop being concerned when you get a president who is'nt a criminal, adulterer, alcholic or downright stupid

Well, when Jesus comes back to earth, we'll ask him, since he's the only one in the history of the world that could qualify!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[andybr6 0]

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We will stop being concerned when you get a president who is'nt a criminal, adulterer, alcholic or downright stupid

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Well, when Jesus comes back to earth, we'll ask him, since he's the only one in the history of the world that could qualify!

I am not saying that they need to be perfect; however the qualities, as i hope you will agree, are not found in the majority of American citizens, nor are they found in the majority of American presidents. I only wanted to point out that this is one of the reasons why those of us who do not live in America express concern over who is president.

EDIT: to correct HTML thingy

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"All men can fly, but sadly, only in one direction"

[Gawain 0]

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I see people now are trying to connect Kerry with terrorist organistations. Do you really wanna go there?
Let see, who helped 24 members of the Bin Laden family to escape from the US back to Saudia Arabia?
NY-times article here
They probably didn't have any information of Osama anyway, right. Or is it just nice to be friends of the president?

This is old news. Did you even read the article? The headline said it best: "Fearing Harm" "...24 members of Osama bin Laden's extended family..." and "...bin Laden is estranged from his family..."

The bin Laden family has a successful range of businesses including Telecom, Import/Export, etc. I've not heard of anyone, anywhere, indicting the bin Laden family, who is on Osama's sh*t list if he ever returns to Saudi Arabia (which he wants to turn into another Afghanistan type country).

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Why did protesters in Spain in June 2001 have signs reading "Bush Taliban" ?
BBC story here

As this visit was prior to 9/11, people were whining about US troops on Spanish Army bases, and the US embargo on Cuba.

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Why did Taliban officials visit Texas in 1997.
Who the hell are Unocal?

Unocal is a gas and oil exploration production company, HQ'd in California. Did anyone have any clue or care about Afghanistan in 1997?

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I love how everyone across the pond, or in the great white north seems to have it all figured out. Ask any Cuban in Miami, Florida if they're happy that they left Cuba and Castro. Hundreds die every year trying to escape that rotton forgotten regime. The US gives Cuban refugees immigration so they may start over. European countries import Cuban sugar and cigars, lining the pockets of Castro and paying his secret police.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[rickjump1 0]

I can visit the great wall of China and see where students were executed in the square, but I can't go bass fishing in Cuba. Both these countries repress freedom and lock up dissidents.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[Gawain 0]

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I can visit the great wall of China and see where students were executed in the square, but I can't go bass fishing in Cuba. Both these countries repress freedom and lock up dissidents.

I am also a staunch supporter of removing MFN-status from China indefinitely. I also would start regulating our currency to theirs, as they do to us, until they level the playing field. If I didn't think they'd move on Taiwan, I'd support formal recognition there too.

Overall, I agree with the point you make. Cuba and China, while similar, must be treated differently.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[kmcguffee 0]

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and when America starts listening to the views of other countries

You used "listen" but you meant "pandering" didn't you.

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criminal, adulterer, alcholic or downright stupid

Maybe you could lend us a member of your royal family to help out. I mean they have set such an outstanding example right?

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[andybr6 0]

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You used "listen" but you meant "pandering" didn't you

I meant listening as in taking on board what other people have to say and maybe even learning something from it.

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Maybe you could lend us a member of your royal family to help out. I mean they have set such an outstanding example right?

The Royal family have no political power so i do not see the relevence to the topic.

I am not going to turn this into a petty nationalist argument; there are as many examples of 'questionable' Prime Ministers as there are Presidents. However neither Britain, nor any other country, has as much influence as America on international affairs; this makes the issue of who is president important on a global level. As i said i was simply trying to show why those of us who do not live in America have a right to be concerned.

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"All men can fly, but sadly, only in one direction"

[Michele 1]

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I meant listening as in taking on board what other people have to say and maybe even learning something from it.

Do you mean "listening" as in hearing and considering and adopting a different viewpoint, or do you mean just hearing and considering that viewpoint?

See, one can hear viewpoints, and not adopt them, and still it's been heard and considered. If you have an opinion about the way I run my life, I'll listen to it (if it's presented respectfully) and consider it, but I reserve the right to run my life to the benefit of me.

If I don't change my life to accommodate your opinion, does that mean I didn't listen to it, or does it mean I did, and opted to run my life for my benefit anyway?

Really interested in hearing your opinion on that...

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[WFFC 1]

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...but I can't go bass fishing in Cuba.

sure you can...You just have to route your flights correctly to land in Cuba from a country, like Mexico, that doesn't have flight restrictions into there. Oh, you probably shouldn't buy your ticket in advance either...

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~~~Michael

[andybr6 0]

Michele, I think you make an excellent point and I will try and answer you question. Taking your analogy: You are of course under no obligation to change your life because of my opinion. However if the way you run your life has a detramental effect on mine then, in my opinion, you have a responsibilty to listen to and take-on-board my idea; by this i mean to discuss this with me and reach a compromise.

I refer to the way in which America executes its foreign policy. We all live on a planet that is growing smaller with the advent of modern technology and because of this we should treat our neigbours with respect. I realise 'respect' is an ambiguous term but i think it does inlcude listening to, and occasionly adopting the ideas of your neighbours. I think it also means considering the consequences of your actions on others, not just what possible benefits might be landed on you. I certainly do not wish to isolate America as the only country that does this, it is just that this is the country that the thread is about; though as the worlds only super-power i think it does need special attention.

I hope i have answered your question and clarified my position.

A

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"All men can fly, but sadly, only in one direction"

[Michele 1]

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Michele, I think you make an excellent point and I will try and answer you question. Taking your analogy: You are of course under no obligation to change your life because of my opinion. However if the way you run your life has a detramental effect on mine then, in my opinion, you have a responsibilty to listen to and take-on-board my idea; by this i mean to discuss this with me and reach a compromise.

Thanks, Andy. I appreciate the clarification.

O.K., let's expand the analogy a bit.

Let's say you and I are neighbors. I have roses growing in my front yard, and you're allergic to them. It's my yard, though. And I am partial to roses.

So you approach me, nicely, and explain that your allergies are really bad, and will I remove all the roses in my yard because that would help you breathe easier while you're in your yard.

I agree - but only to the extent that I take the roses from the border of our yards, rather than take all the roses out. What if the rest of the roses still bother you? Do you then get in my face, block my driveway, throw eggs at my window, to make me listen to you? O.K., so that's a bad extension of the analogy. It's too early for me. LOL.

Let's talk for real.

Your position is that the foreign policy of the US affects your country. How? In what way? What opinion would you like them to consider, and then compromise? And how far do you think that compromise should go - all the way to making us more vulnerable to terrorist attacks?

I'm curious - really and truly. I run across this position in my day-to-day life - and have yet to find a good resolution when someone's opinion is considered, but my life isn't going to change for that opinion, and then "they" get mad, and occasionally get retaliatory. So I'm honestly interested in how one can resolve this. And I always figure if it's happening in the micro, it's happening on the macro.

Thanks for your reply. It makes sense, but I'd like to see what the next step would be. And I do appreciate you taking my question seriously.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[rickjump1 0]

I guess I would be in less trouble doing that than filing a VFR flight to Crawford, Texas.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[crzjp20 0]

intresting point, and here is an observaion of mine.

Politicaly speaking, europe seemed to love Clinton, why casye he would do what they said, and cause he was afraid o use the militry... hince his cutting of funding and all that. So after 8 years of weakness on the part of america, europe now has to deal with a president who is not afriad to stand up and take action. In return they can not control him, and i think Bush intemidates some of them.

in a nut shelll, europe got use to a weak presdent, on forign policy, and now they have a pres. who is bold on forign policy. its out of the box, and in return they dont like it.

please note this is just my opinion, and i hope this can be a civil debate, not childish and foolish.

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Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage.

[Michele 1]

Hi, Andy...sorry, part 2 here...

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I realise 'respect' is an ambiguous term but i think it does inlcude listening to, and occasionly adopting the ideas of your neighbours. I think it also means considering the consequences of your actions on others, not just what possible benefits might be landed on you

by benefit, I don't mean materially, necessarily.

I think, to clarify, what I mean mostly is that if I hear, consider, and then reject your opinion because I see something differently, and choose to run my life in a manner which adheres to my life, then isn't that my right to do so? If I hear you, think about what you say, and still determine that the best course of action is a different one than what you'd like for YOUR life, then isn't that my right? What if I consider the consequences, decide that it's all right with me, and move ahead with the original plan because it's acceptable to me?

See, what happens, a lot, is that people don't think they're being heard and considered because the actions they want aren't taking place. The action does not preclude hearing and consideration, but rather only demonstrates a different choice, based on different needs and desires, than the one offering the alternative opinion.

So how does one balance the two? How do I convince you that you've been heard, but a choice was made differently than what you wanted, but it doesn't mean you haven't been heard?

Long ago, I learned that "I hear you" doesn't mean "I agree with you." I learned "I understand" does not mean "I will do as you wish." Acknowledging someone's position does not mean changing mine.

Just more rambling before I head to the office.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[christelsabine 1]

What could it be that makes you believe, the Europeans consider GWB as a bold one? everybody over here knows that his vice Cheney was the one holding all strings in his hands and pushing GWB into this awkward business in Iraq.

Mr. Cheney of Halliburton.

GWB never was famous because of his intrepidity.

just a puppet on a string.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[kallend 2,151]

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We will stop being concerned when you get a president who is'nt a criminal, adulterer, alcholic or downright stupid

Well, when Jesus comes back to earth, we'll ask him, since he's the only one in the history of the world that could qualify!

You have a very poor opinion of Americans. Maybe it's a Texas thing.

I'd say that most of the Americans I know are not criminals, alcoholics, adulterers or stupid. Unfortunately none of them have run for president.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,151]

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Michele, I think you make an excellent point and I will try and answer you question. Taking your analogy: You are of course under no obligation to change your life because of my opinion. However if the way you run your life has a detramental effect on mine then, in my opinion, you have a responsibilty to listen to and take-on-board my idea; by this i mean to discuss this with me and reach a compromise.

Thanks, Andy. I appreciate the clarification.

O.K., let's expand the analogy a bit.

Let's say you and I are neighbors. I have roses growing in my front yard, and you're allergic to them. It's my yard, though. And I am partial to roses.

So you approach me, nicely, and explain that your allergies are really bad, and will I remove all the roses in my yard because that would help you breathe easier while you're in your yard.

I agree - but only to the extent that I take the roses from the border of our yards, rather than take all the roses out. What if the rest of the roses still bother you? Do you then get in my face, block my driveway, throw eggs at my window, to make me listen to you? O.K., so that's a bad extension of the analogy. It's too early for me. LOL.

Your analogy would be better if you were growing your roses in someone else's yard without having been invited in, and the manure you use is falling all over your neighbors. In which case, yes, it is their business.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[andybr6 0]

As it is difficult to come up with an analogy to define a complex issue such as foreign policy [i have been racking my brains and cannot think of one], I will try and make a reasonable comparison:

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And how far do you think that compromise should go - all the way to making us more vulnerable to terrorist attacks?

Britain has suffered terrorist attacks for the past twenty or so years from the IRA and RIRA ['Real' IRA] Ireland is a small country and it is only a small minority that carried out terrorist attacks on the UK. It would have been well within the British military and intelligence services abilities to 'remove' certain terrorists and the Sinn Fein party. However internationaly we would have been condemed for doing so; delegates discussed the situation with the politcal party who were known to support the IRA and, after much hard work, the situation has improved dramaticaly. I do'nt think that this is a perfect comparison with all US foreign policy but i do think it is an example of a compromise between the [supposedly] most effective way of dealing with these situations, and the diplomatic response. British soldiers have of course not always followed the policies of the government but it was never the policy of Britain to go to war because of a small minority.

I object to my own country's sheep like following of America as much as i do to American foreign policy; to that end Britain is far from being free of responsibilty and this is why the topic for me is not a nationalistic or patriotic one. However I do not think that America uses its power wisley, as the saying goes 'with great power comes great responsibilty'; when the US puts pressure on a country it does so as a western super-power and regardless of whether America wants this responsiblity or not, it represents the developed western world. It is the seeming lack of acknowledgment by the US of this international responsibility that concerns me.


I hope i have covered the points that you raised, sorry for the delayed response it is a combination of time difference and revision.

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"All men can fly, but sadly, only in one direction"

[billvon 3,120]

>Let's say you and I are neighbors. I have roses growing in my front
> yard, and you're allergic to them. It's my yard, though. And I am
> partial to roses.

>So you approach me, nicely, and explain that your allergies are
> really bad, and will I remove all the roses in my yard because that
> would help you breathe easier while you're in your yard.

>I agree - but only to the extent that I take the roses from the border
> of our yards, rather than take all the roses out. What if the rest of
> the roses still bother you? Do you then get in my face, block my
> driveway, throw eggs at my window, to make me listen to you? O.K.,
> so that's a bad extension of the analogy. It's too early for me. LOL.

Well, but what would he do if we regularly attacked nearby homes, killed their kids and planted roses there, because we felt that having roses was the "correct" system of horticulture? We have a habit of believing that our system of government is the correct one and other countries need to be "liberated" to that system.

Roses are nice, and most people like them, but they should not be imposed on people even if we firmly believe they are the best flower. When we do impose them, other countries that don't like the thorns may get worried.

[Michele 1]

Bill, I tole ya it was a bad analogy...bad enough that you missed the point of the conversation. Sorry...I tole ya it was early.

I think, what we are looking to hash through, is the question that listening and acknowledging other people's/countries views, but not necessarily agreeing to them does not equate to the same thing as not hearing them and not considering them in the first place. It simply means that we have a difference of opinion.

We see that in simple conversations about things that don't matter in the long run...we see it in conversations that will affect how we run our lives. We see it in the micro and the macro, and I'm trying to figure out how to communicate that "yes, I hear you" does not mean "Yes, I will do as you like" if that's not my best interest.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Ron 10]

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I see people now are trying to connect Kerry with terrorist organistations. Do you really wanna go there?
Let see, who helped 24 members of the Bin Laden family to escape from the US back to Saudia Arabia?

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ABSTRACT - Saudi Arabia supervised urgent evacuation of 24 members of Osama bin Laden's extended family from United States in first days after terror attacks on New York and Washington, fearing that they might be subjected to violence; bin Laden is estranged from his family; Saudi Amb Bandar bin Sultan says one of bin Laden's brothers in US called Saudi Embassy frantically looking for protection; most of bin Laden's relatives in US attend high school and college; Saudi King Fahd sent urgent message to his embassy in Washington ordering that bin Laden children in America be protected; photo (M)

I guess you would have ratherd we lynch them instead of protect them? Cause people would have right after 9/11 if they were able to get a hold of them.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334