Your Papers, Please!

[JohnRich 4]

From England:

Public 'happy to carry ID cards'

David Blunkett has pledged to push ahead with ID card legislation after an opinion poll said most people would be happy to carry one.

The home secretary said he wanted a bill paving the way for a national ID scheme to become law before the next general election.

He said the biometric system proposed would end multiple identities and give a boost to the fight against terrorism and organised crime.

"What has anybody to worry about having their true identity known?" he said. "They have got everything to fear from someone stealing and misusing it."

The MORI survey... revealed 80% of those questioned backed a national ID card scheme, echoing findings from previous polls.

The principal reason people gave for backing the adoption of ID cards was to prevent illegal immigration.

BBC News

* * *

So if you forget your national I.D. card, and are stopped by police, are they going to put you on a boat and deport you?

Oh, and what's to keep the terrorists and illegals from forging the new national I.D. card?

Sheeple!

Perhaps they should first study this case history of such an attempt in Nigeria:

"Exactly a year ago the federal government staged a nationwide drama which resulted in a monumental waste of over $220 million. It was a very spectacular performance, and the theme of the drama: "National Identity Card Registration" was so compelling that no single Nigerian, not even some resident aliens wanted to be left out of the grand show. People were made to believe that their fortune as Nigerians would henceforth depend on the identify card..."

AllAfrica.com

[Malfunction 0]

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He said the biometric system proposed would end multiple identities and give a boost to the fight against terrorism and organised crime....The principal reason people gave for backing the adoption of ID cards was to prevent illegal immigration.

I guess STEALING THE FRIGGIN CARDS never crossed anyone's mind there, eh? And how exactly are cards supposed to prevent illegal immigration? Cards don't keep people from crossing borders. Oh, right, only registered people would have id cards... isn't that was driver's liscenses and work visas and social security cards are for? Just another way for Big Brother to keep an eye on us.

Next thing you know, we will have bar codes tatooed on us... or microchips implanted at birth. Are we slaves or are we human fucking beings?

I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it.
- Voltaire

[Gawain 0]

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He said the biometric system proposed would end multiple identities and give a boost to the fight against terrorism and organised crime....The principal reason people gave for backing the adoption of ID cards was to prevent illegal immigration.

I guess STEALING THE FRIGGIN CARDS never crossed anyone's mind there, eh?

I laughed out loud at that. Not only that, but computer hackers can infiltrate the network and adjust the "data" being stored in the network. Then, all you need are "blank" ID cards.

It's no different than the 20,000 blank passports that were stolen in Paris in February. Once you have the template, a whole new world is available.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[PhillyKev 0]

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Oh, and what's to keep the terrorists and illegals from forging the new national I.D. card?

Same thing that keeps criminals from owning "assault rifles". It's against the law...duh.

[Malfunction 0]

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Same thing that keeps criminals from owning "assault rifles". It's against the law...duh.

ROFLMAO! Duh!

I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it.
- Voltaire

[Gawain 0]

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Oh, and what's to keep the terrorists and illegals from forging the new national I.D. card?

Same thing that keeps criminals from owning "assault rifles". It's against the law...duh.

You mean there aren't any criminals with assault rifles? (I think you were being sarcastic, I just wanted to be sure)

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[PhillyKev 0]

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You mean there aren't any criminals with assault rifles?

Of course not. They're banned.

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(I think you were being sarcastic, I just wanted to be sure)

Honestly though, not many criminals do have so called "assault weapons". Thing is, they didn't before the ban either.

[Jimbo 0]

There's a decent essay on the concept of a national ID card here.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[Erroll 80]

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I guess STEALING THE FRIGGIN CARDS never crossed anyone's mind there, eh? And how exactly are cards supposed to prevent illegal immigration? Cards don't keep people from crossing borders.

In South Africa we have been carrying ID for decades: The so-called ID Document- it containes an ID page, pages for firearm licences, pages for drivers' licences, pages for endorsements, pages for marriage certificates. These days we are also carrying a credit-card style driver's licence. And you are right of course - we have the biggest influx of illegal aliens in all of Africa. The ID card makes absolutely no difference. As was (sarcasstically) mentioned before:- The law-abiding citizens carry legitimate ID while the illegal aliens simply don't bother, or they steal them or they get them from corrupt Home Affairs officials.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

<---Public 'happy to carry ID cards'

Heradline says it all really. No further debate required.


"Oh, right, only registered people would have id cards... isn't that was driver's liscenses and work visas and social security cards are for."

Just to explain some of our paperwork over here, drivers licences until recently did not carry photo ID, and besides, the prevalence of driver's licences is much lower here than in the US. I can think of at least a dozen people off hand I know that don't have a driver's license.
Social security cards don't carry photo ID, and to have a work visa, you need a passport. Passports aren't necessarily required to enter the UK if you are a citizen of a member of country of the EEC, all you need is an identity card......
This is not only an attempt to curb illegal aliens entering and working in the UK, but also to provide 'official' photo ID to limit credit card fraud.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Skyrad 0]

I never thought I'd (Or should that be Id) see the day that I found myself agreeing with you John, but here its is. The idea that carrying a Id card will some how help fight terrorism is laughable. I think it is an infringment of our civil rights and am opposed to the idea. Its been suggested that these biometric cards carry finger prints and possibly even DNA sequences of the individual!
Don't you have Id cards in the states?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

But credit card fruad is also being delt with by the introduction of pin numbers instead of signatures. i don't agree that it will help reduce credit card fruad once the pin system has been implemented fully.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Erroll 80]

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Its been suggested that these biometric cards carry finger prints and possibly even DNA sequences of the individual!

When we converted to the new style driver's licences (with photographs), every applicant was fingerprinted too. Personally I didn't think it was an invasion of privacy or Big Brother checking up. With our soaring crime rate, I believe it is just another 'tool' the authorities can use to combat crime.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Yeah, I agree the side benefits are marginal, Jamile.
By the way, I don't really see the point in putting DNA data on an identity card. A finger print or retina scan are surely easier to check with mobile equipment. I think I heard plans to put people's faces on credit cards, a nice quick and easy way to check the user's authenticity.
The police currently have sufficient powers to require someone to formally identify themselves, this card just gives people a common means to do this.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Skyrad 0]

Sure, but Erroll we have a long way to go before we have a crime situation comparitable to that in SA. Also you have had Id books in SA for pretty much all of the last century, we haven't so its a bigger step for us over here.
Its not so much the cards being carried now that worries me but the security of the information we supply. How its stored and where, who has access to it and the possible missuse of it. Also at the moment we live in a pretty secure stable society but what if this changes in the future? I need to look into both sides of the argument a bit more but I do have grave concerns.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Erroll 80]

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so its a bigger step for us over here.

Fair enough.

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Its not so much the cards being carried now that worries me but the security of the information we supply. How its stored and where, who has access to it and the possible missuse of it.

How will it be different from the way your passport information, banking details or medical records are stored? Somewhere along the line there is always the possibility of someone getting illicit access to information and misusing it.

I know from personal experience that having to carry positive ID has helped me on several occasions. In fact, on one trip to the UK I had to rent a car at Heathrow. My SA ID book (which at the time included my SA driver's licence) was good enough for for the rental company! As it happened, my colleague was not allowed to drive the rental since his ID book had an endorsement that his driver's licence had been suspended.

[Skyrad 0]

Muslim women will be exempt from having to carry a card with their photo on it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,12780,1202916,00.html


I just don't think there is much point in this idea of a card, in London I recently read that only 40% of the population is British. Certainly I work in a very large hospital where the vast majority of staff are foriegn. From SA, Oz, NZ, Philipines, Africa, Far East and Arabs. Unless they make it law that everyone must carry a passport all this would do is make British people carry Id in thier own country while others living and working here are exempt Also we will be having to pay up 37 quid for an Id card I heard on the BBC news this morning.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[kallend 2,146]

For all practical purposes the USA already has a national picture ID card, it's called a Driver's License.

Sure you CAN get by without one, but only if you don't: use checks, credit cards in many places, travel by air, drive a car... I even had to show my driver's license to waiver at a DZ recently.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[PhillyKev 0]

But, there aren't any laws requiring you to carry it at all times.

[Malfunction 0]

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But, there aren't any laws requiring you to carry it at all times

And I am grateful for that. I don't know how many times I walked out of my apartment without my Drivers Liscense.

My issue is that, although there are lots of people without drivers liscenses, they are still a viable way to identify someone. Those that do not have drivers liscenses in the states DO have the option of getting an id card that is not a liscence, but produced by the same authority. It tells the same info, but restrict the legal driving of automobiles. That is a whole other debate. The topic is a national id card. If it is similar to that of the drivers liscense in the States, then I say let it be. If, however, it contains more information that is voluntarilly given or legally required without overstepping the right of privacy (for those that have that right), then I say NO WAY. If it is in addition to the drivers liscense, the again, I am against the idea. One photo id is all that is needed, no more. I think that not only provides the government ample power to keep an eye on us, but also does not restrict us any more than we already are.

ok, rant done... though it isn't very clear...

I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it.
- Voltaire

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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But, there aren't any laws requiring you to carry it at all times.

No, but who needs laws to enforce carrying it when daily life is made nearly impossible if you are without one, anyway?

I can't believe that you can turn a computer on but can't see that there is really no practical difference.
-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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But credit card fruad is also being delt with by the introduction of pin numbers instead of signatures. i don't agree that it will help reduce credit card fruad once the pin system has been implemented fully.

Here in the U.S., if you go to a gas pump and swipe your ATM debit card OR credit card, you can dispense gas with it WITHOUT HAVING TO ENTER A PIN.

This fact is used to steal from people. A credit card is stolen, a perp walks up to someone at a gas pump with some story about why he can't get cash with the card, but will pay for your gas with "his" card if you give the cash to him as reimbursement. He can do this ONLY because the PIN, which he does not know, is not required.

This brings me to a helpful tip for you all:
Take your wallet to a photocopy machine, lay all of the cards out, and take a photocopy of them. Turn each card over in its place, and photocopy the back (many cards have info on the back, particularly credit cards: this is where they list the 800 number to report theft).

Make a few copies of each side and take them home and put them in a safe place. You might even keep a copy in your glove compartment. Use this copy to be able to instantly know whom you have to call if your wallet is ever stolen or lost. Cancel all credit cards immediately, and inform the DMV of the loss of your driver's license. (The copy kept in your car is because often stolen credit cards are used within minutes or hours of the theft. You can use this copy even if you're hours away from home.)

I hope this helps somebody.

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[Gawain 0]

Quote

Quote

But credit card fruad is also being delt with by the introduction of pin numbers instead of signatures. i don't agree that it will help reduce credit card fruad once the pin system has been implemented fully.

Here in the U.S., if you go to a gas pump and swipe your ATM debit card OR credit card, you can dispense gas with it WITHOUT HAVING TO ENTER A PIN.

This fact is used to steal from people. A credit card is stolen, a perp walks up to someone at a gas pump with some story about why he can't get cash with the card,

Here in California, most stations I've gone too have required a PIN for designated debit card transactions. For credit cards, I've been required to enter the zip code for the billing address of the account. I don't know if it's statewide, but it's certainly a practical deterrent.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

But credit card fruad is also being delt with by the introduction of pin numbers instead of signatures. i don't agree that it will help reduce credit card fruad once the pin system has been implemented fully.

Here in the U.S., if you go to a gas pump and swipe your ATM debit card OR credit card, you can dispense gas with it WITHOUT HAVING TO ENTER A PIN.

This fact is used to steal from people. A credit card is stolen, a perp walks up to someone at a gas pump with some story about why he can't get cash with the card,

Here in California, most stations I've gone too have required a PIN for designated debit card transactions. For credit cards, I've been required to enter the zip code for the billing address of the account. I don't know if it's statewide, but it's certainly a practical deterrent.

Well, it ain't in place here in Florida, and it ain't in place in ANY of the states I gassed-up in on the drive to and from New York earlier in April. That would include Georgia, North Carolina, Maryland, and New Jersey. I can't say about New York, because the times I got gas there I paid an attendant instead of at the pump.

It's amazing that with credit card fraud and identity theft as rampant as they're making it seem it is, that there are not uniform standards like you described to help stop it! That borders on criminal malfeasance on the part of the card companies, the companies that accept cards, and the state legislatures.
-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"Use this copy to be able to instantly know whom you have to call if your wallet is ever stolen or lost."

I have a 'sentinel' service on all my cards, one phone call and they are all cancelled, they also keep stuff for me like a copy of my passport, birth cert etc, and sort the whole thing out if it all goes pear shaped.
I'm pretty sure there's setups like that in the US.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson