Are you pro-life and support oral contraceptives?

[pajarito 0]

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But discarding those embryos is no more murder than discarding the sperm and eggs stored in the same facility.

There is no human construct yet with a separate egg and a sperm. There is after they join and eventually form into an embyo. If you consider that human, as I do, you are destroying them by discarding them. Call it what you wish.

Gotta go again....I'll be back to respond in a while.

[Kennedy 0]

For this I guess there are two camps of pro lifers. The absolutists are against condoms, birth control of any sort, and all abortions no matter what.

Others believe it is wrong to do anything after sperm hits ovum. For them, the pill is ok, condoms are fine, but the morning after pill and anything else destroying a fetus is unacceptable.

It's not hypocritical, it's a matter of where you draw the line.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[billvon 3,090]

>There is no human construct yet with a separate egg and a sperm.
>There is after they join and eventually form into an embyo.

There is no human construct without implantation. The raw materials (the embryo) is incapable of developing on its own, just as a separate egg and sperm are incapable of developing on their own.

[weegegirl 2]

100% Pro Choice.

NOBODY has the right to tell a woman what she can or cannot do with her body. Every situation is different with different circumstances. People need the right to make the decision that is best for their family. I would NEVER take that right away from another human being.

[pajarito 0]

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There is no human construct without implantation. The raw materials (the embryo) is incapable of developing on its own, just as a separate egg and sperm are incapable of developing on their own.

Is your last sentense defining what the formation of a "human construct" means to you? Does that mean that you would not believe in abortion after implantation? Do you not consider when human DNA is initially formed? Do you then believe that we, by allowing legal abortions, are unjustly killing humans (speaking of implanted embryos and forward through the developmental cycle according to your example) by performing abortions. If so, do you not think it should be legislated by not allowing it except under extreme circumstances?

[PhillyKev 0]

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support oral contraceptives?

Well, I learned something today. Didn't know you could get pregnant orally.

[billvon 3,090]

>Does that mean that you would not believe in abortion after implantation?

No, I'm not talking to morality with that statement, just viability. A great many embryos do not implant even in fertile women. When they fail to implant there is no human being; there is nothing that even vaugely resembles a human being. Therefore a non-implanted embryo is not viable until it implants.

>Do you not consider when human DNA is initially formed?

Nope. I form tens of thousands of complete sets of human DNA every day, any one of which could be used by a competent technician to start a clone. None of those cells (white blood cells and skin cells mainly) is a human being separate from me. A set of cells that have a complete human genome is not am independent human any more than my kidney is an independent human.

>Do you then believe that we, by allowing legal abortions, are unjustly
>killing humans (speaking of implanted embryos and forward through
> the developmental cycle according to your example) by performing
> abortions.

After the fetus is viable - yes, we are unjustly killing a new human being, and the _only_ time that's acceptable is medical emergency (ie. to save the mother or another child she is carrying.)

Before the fetus exhibits brain function - no. The fetus at that point does not exhibit the most basic trait of being human i.e. having a human mind.

In between? I don't know the answer to that. Is it killing? Certainly. Is it wrong? I think so. Does my moral judgement take precedence over the moral judgement of a pregnant woman? I don't know either, and until I do I will err on the side of caution - that as a man I don't understand all the issues that a potential mother does, and she is more qualified to make the decision than I am.

[EricaH 0]

No way, I agree w/ Billvon - crazy!!

I also agree w/ TomA, wrong way & Kennedy.

There are many women that have natural misscarages - I do not think they've gone through an abortion.

Ps. I'm pro-life, but as many have said here, not an absolutionist (sp?) & I also don't project my morals on others.

I've gone into the PPH office, walking through a line of picketers calling me a killer - funny, cause I think I recognized one of the ladies from the life chain I was in years ago.... anyway.

have a great night - I'm outtie.

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[Lindsey 0]

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There are many women that have natural misscarages - I do not think they've gone through an abortion.

Right....I think I'm remembering the number correctly when I say that about 60% of conceptions result in spontaneous abortion (i.e. miscarriage) before the mother even knows the conception has occurred.

Lindsey

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[pajarito 0]

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There are many women that have natural misscarages - I do not think they've gone through an abortion.

Misscarage = Spontaneous (i.e. natural) "abortion."
Not the same thing as a medically induced one where ethics might be involved.

[billvon 3,090]

>about 60% of conceptions result in spontaneous abortion . . .

That's the number I heard as well, but someone strenuously disagreed last time we discussed it.

[Lindsey 0]

I'll find out about that...

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>about 60% of conceptions result in spontaneous abortion . . .

That's the number I heard as well, but someone strenuously disagreed last time we discussed it.

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[freeflygoddess 0]

I am pro-choice, but on differnt levels...if a women knows that she doesn't want to have kids and uses abortion for birth control, I don't agree with, but a mother useing abortion to save her life, and the babies..i.e. A-topic pregnancy (tubuler) or a rape victim, that is a totally differnt sitution. After I was raped when I was only 11 years old, if I had been pregnant there would have been no way I would have kept the baby.

[rhino 0]

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I would NEVER take that right away from another human being.

Yet you so easily agree to the right to take another human beings life because it hasn't been born yet??????????

You agree to the right to a woman to make that decision..

But don't agree that the unborn baby has a right to a life too???

[weegegirl 2]

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I would NEVER take that right away from another human being.

Yet you so easily agree to the right to take another human beings life because it hasn't been born yet??????????

You agree to the right to a woman to make that decision..

But don't agree that the unborn baby has a right to a life too???

So, if you were a woman, and you were violently raped and became pregnant, you would have the child? Where the hell is the choice for the woman there?

[pajarito 0]

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So, if you were a woman, and you were violently raped and became pregnant, you would have the child? Where the hell is the choice for the woman there?

I stated this somewhere else but I'll say again. I can't imagine the horror of having to face something like that. I wouldn't presume to know what it's like or say that I did. That said, I can't help but feel that the child conceived didn't have anything at all to do with the crime. The baby is a complete innocent. The rape victim may be also but I can't see "killing" (and that's what you're doing IMO) the baby because, however tragic it may be, the woman was raped.

[weegegirl 2]

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So, if you were a woman, and you were violently raped and became pregnant, you would have the child? Where the hell is the choice for the woman there?

I stated this somewhere else but I'll say again. I can't imagine the horror of having to face something like that. I wouldn't presume to know what it's like or say that I did. That said, I can't help but feel that the child conceived didn't have anything at all to do with the crime. The baby is a complete innocent. The rape victim may be also but I can't see "killing" (and that's what you're doing IMO) the baby because, however tragic it may be, the woman was raped.

Listen... I understand where you are coming from and I see that you have a huge heart and good intentions... but you will NEVER know what a woman in that situation is going through. Sometimes life just sucks. Sometimes there is no happy solution. I sure as hell do not think that a very early abortion is murder. And I will always be pro-choice. I think it's horrible and a last resort, and should not be common practice... but EVERY situation is different.

[Lindsey 0]

[replyYou agree to the right to a woman to make that decision..

But don't agree that the unborn baby has a right to a life too???

[freeflygoddess 0]

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So, if you were a woman, and you were violently raped and became pregnant, you would have the child? Where the hell is the choice for the woman there?

I stated this somewhere else but I'll say again. I can't imagine the horror of having to face something like that. I wouldn't presume to know what it's like or say that I did. That said, I can't help but feel that the child conceived didn't have anything at all to do with the crime. The baby is a complete innocent. The rape victim may be also but I can't see "killing" (and that's what you're doing IMO) the baby because, however tragic it may be, the woman was raped.

Listen... I understand where you are coming from and I see that you have a huge heart and good intentions... but you will NEVER know what a woman in that situation is going through. Sometimes life just sucks. Sometimes there is no happy solution. I sure as hell do not think that a very early abortion is murder. And I will always be pro-choice. I think it's horrible and a last resort, and should not be common practice... but EVERY situation is different.

Exactlly, you can't please everyone. Not to sound mean or anything but pajarito, have you ever carried a baby for nine months and given birth naturally? No I doubt it, if you had you would be super rich or had sex change that no one knows about. You can not say what you would do in that situation if you have never been in it nor would you ever be put in that situation. Pregnancy effects women completly, they gain weight...no getting around that, it hurts, it makes them hormonal, they have to give up things they love to do for their baby, like skydiving not only that but they have to take off of work or school, lots of things other than just turning around and puttin it up for adoption.

[pajarito 0]

Sorry...don't mean to come across as judgemental. Like I said, I wouldn't presume to know anything about it and I'm seeing it mostly from the baby's point of view. Tough situation. Once of the toughest. I really feel sorry for the ones who have to deal with that.

[rhino 0]

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http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=1039536;page=1;mh=-1;;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC

[weegegirl 2]

Sitting down and reading 300 posts is not going to change my opinion.

[Vallerina 2]

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Yet you so easily agree to the right to take another human beings life because it hasn't been born yet??????????

Is it a human being when a sperm and egg combine? Do you yell at women for taking birth control. This is what the thread is about. I don't care if you're pro-life/choice. Just stay on topic. This thread is about how oral contraceptive can be an abortive and how that fits into a pro-lifers view. I did not start a thread for pro-lifers to spread their word. I started a thread to see how people who are against abortion justify supporting their own sperm or egg being combined with the opposite gender's and knowingly ridding the woman's body of it.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[tbrown 26]

If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[cocheese 0]

Men have no right to even discuss this topic ever. Comprendae ? Should be a women only decision, discussion, and all the laws etc.