Muenkel 0 #76 April 19, 2004 Quote....and I' m Catholic too; MissKriss, You know I think you're a sweety and I don't mean to sound harsh. But claiming to be Catholic and believing as you do, you just may be an excommunicated Catholic. Chris _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bodyflight.Net 0 #77 April 19, 2004 Paragard- Copper Phagocytosis, is ingestion and digestion of cells, that is not what copper IUD's do to sperm. (imaginining big bad IUD eating up the invader sperm!! LOL.. could be a good sci-fi flick) One function is to be the block & tackle, however, that does not escape the fact that it ALSO prevents implantation for strong swimmers. That's why it's so effective. Besides the TRUTH of the matter with IUD's is doctors are not so sure why it works so well, they just know it does. You might also read between the lines of how periods and cycles are heavier and more traumatic in general once an IUD is inserted..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
misskriss 0 #78 April 19, 2004 Quote But claiming to be Catholic and believing as you do, you just may be an excommunicated Catholic. I know , Chris. The thing is.. when I was a 19 year old , unmarried pregnant teenager only one faith accepted me into their flock. That was the Catholic faith. I know my beliefs go against the general beliefs of the church but I also know that love and forgiveness dominated the church I belonged to. My kids went to Catholic school and I was apart of the Legion of Mary. I worship in my own way and do the best I can. I prayed and still do pray the rosary weekly at an old folks home and visit shut ins... if the church chooses to excommunicate me then that is their choice. I know God loves me...I know I am forgiven. There are many "new Catholic" groups... Catholic women for choice, etc. I am ready and willing to accept my fate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #79 April 19, 2004 QuoteParagard- Copper Phagocytosis, is ingestion and digestion of cells, that is not what copper IUD's do to sperm. (imaginining big bad IUD eating up the invader sperm!! LOL.. could be a good sci-fi flick) Copper IUD's release copper ions which cause a local reaction which causes a release of leukocytes (white blood cells). These are the cells which cause phagocytosis. Therefore, according to 2 OB/GYN books present to my right, this is the main mechanism of action. QuoteOne function is to be the block & tackle, however, that does not escape the fact that it ALSO prevents implantation for strong swimmers. That's why it's so effective. Besides the TRUTH of the matter with IUD's is doctors are not so sure why it works so well, they just know it does. Not sure what the "block & tackle" description is supposed to mean. QuoteYou might also read between the lines of how periods and cycles are heavier and more traumatic in general once an IUD is inserted..... That is because you have a foreign body present inside the uterine cavity which is the source of the increased contractions. You will note that, with a Mirena IUD, periods actually become lighter secondary to the progestrone secretion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #80 April 19, 2004 Quote(imaginining big bad IUD eating up the invader sperm!! LOL.. could be a good sci-fi flick) I think that would make a cool movie, though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bodyflight.Net 0 #81 April 19, 2004 from the manufacturer of my IUD: "The exact mechanism by which copper enhances the contraceptive effect of intrauterine contraception has not been conclusively demonstrated. Various hypotheses have been advanced, including interference with sperm transport, fertilization, and implantation. Clinical studies with copper-bearing intrauterine contraceptives also suggest that fertilization is prevented either due to an altered number or lack of viability of spermatozoa" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #82 April 19, 2004 Please believe that I am not judging you. I will stand before God alone and answer for my own life...noone elses. The point I was trying to make is the true teachings of the Catholic Church prohibits abortion under all circumstances. And if all Catholics took a vote right now and decided that abortion or pro-choice was OK, it would not change the true Catholic faith. Those who can pick up a Catholic Catechism approved by Rome and not agree with all that is written in it, is basically not Catholic no matter how many of the Sacraments they received. Catholicism is not a nationality that you are born into. It is a belief. The Catholics that are believing as you say they are, are splitting from the Catholic Church just like all the Protestant faiths before them. Chris _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
misskriss 0 #83 April 19, 2004 QuoteThe Catholics that are believing as you say they are, are splitting from the Catholic Church just like all the Protestant faiths before them. True.. . So I shall call myself by a different name if it so pleases the people. That if a rose by any other name would smell as sweet..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #84 April 19, 2004 Quotefrom the manufacturer of my IUD: "The exact mechanism by which copper enhances the contraceptive effect of intrauterine contraception has not been conclusively demonstrated. Various hypotheses have been advanced, including interference with sperm transport, fertilization, and implantation. Clinical studies with copper-bearing intrauterine contraceptives also suggest that fertilization is prevented either due to an altered number or lack of viability of spermatozoa" The last part about clinical studies with copper IUD’s is exactly what I was describing. You are correct in that they aren’t 100% sure of the mechanism of action, however, the studies that have been done indicate that the main mechanism of action is as I described above. Again, I concede that there are cases where the blocking of implantation takes place but that is NOT the main mechanism of action. Reference: Fertility & Sterility, 1989; 49: 768-773 Eggs flushed from the tubes at tubal sterilization showed no evidence of fertilization in women wearing copper IUD’s. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #85 April 19, 2004 Ahhhh....another pro-abortionist with a post. Good for you. Always good to stir this pot up around election time. I always chuckle at these posts on abortion, as nobody seems to share my own opinions with regards to the subject. Well, very few anyway. In the future, for the purpose of conservative stomachs everywhere, please refrain from using 'pro-choice' and go with 'pro-abortion' instead. Given the anti-choice sentiments of the left with regards to schools, it just doesn't comport with the party of abortion's platform as a whole. With regards to the murder of unborn children, a few comments from TheAnvil. My position: mixed. While I have absolutely no doubt that abortion is murder, part of that is based upon faith. I believe that life begins at conception, but I cannot factually prove this until a certain point in the pregnancy. That being said, I cannot support a complete ban on abortions prior to this VERY SUBJECTIVE point, because I would be basing such a decision upon faith, and thereby imposing my faith upon others. I believe preventing such an imposition is the true intent of the first ammendment (which doesn't state 'separation of church and state' anywhere, ACLU clowns). However, an even cursory glance at the pregnancy process reveals that there IS a point where that zygote is alive. You can operate on it, sense its heartbeat, sense its brainwaves, see it forming, etc. At that very subjective point, it is simply inconceivable that a human life has not been created - a life with inalienable rights. Are there times when the health of the mother takes precedence? Absolutely. Are such times few, far between, and none-of-the-business-of-the government? Absolutely. Banning the procedure from a legal standpoint inserts the government into what should be a family matter. Now banning the procedure except when the health of the mother is in question is perfectly acceptable from an Anvil point of view. My main problem with the left-wingers on this issue is their inability to show a video of what they support. Just like they'll NEVER proudly proclaim their support of racial discriminatory programs, they lack the courage to show the public what they support. Conservatives have it wrong too, trying to impose their faith on others, but obviously less so than the lefties because conservatives WILL show you a video. They WILL defend their argument with scientific fact - most of them anyway. It's just when they go overboard when they get it wrong. Touchy issue. As usual, the left fails to impress me with its efforts here. Claiming to be 'pro-choice' given their school vouchers position helps redefine hypocrisy - but then again, they seem to specialize in earning the 'hyocrite' label.Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bodyflight.Net 0 #86 April 19, 2004 QuoteReference: Fertility & Sterility, 1989; 49: 768-773 Eggs flushed from the tubes at tubal sterilization showed no evidence of fertilization in women wearing copper IUD’s. Your reference material is quite outdated, alot has changed in the last 14 years. Let us also not neglect the fact that an IUD is one of the LEAST used forms of birth control therefore making it not a research priority. And I'm not sure about the "eggs flushed part" since they don't due sterilization procedures on pregnant women, why would you expect to find a fertilized egg in a sterilization procedure? I think we got sidetracked.. again how does this bear on what would happen if abortion was illegal? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bodyflight.Net 0 #87 April 19, 2004 I guess you have nothing to contribute to the thread, since you obviously missed the point. It must be hard to believe so strongly in something that you can't see the nose in front of your face. So, contribute... what possible results do you see if abortion was outlawed. If your so passionate, back it up, since you volunteered to participate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,111 #88 April 19, 2004 >I do not support abortion. Not in the case of rape, accidental >pregnancy, or even in the case that the mother could "potentially" >die.. Their are very few definites in life. Let me post a hypothetical situation to you. You discover you are the father of twins. One has a severe defect; she will certainly not survive more than a few minutes outside the mother. The other is healthy. The odds of premature labor at around the 25 month timeframe is pretty high. You can have a selective reduction done to give the healthy child a very good chance of making it to 35 weeks. What do you and your wife do? To me, that's not a hypothetical question. I am glad that parents and doctors rather than the courts can still make those sorts of decisions when they have to be made. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #89 April 19, 2004 QuoteEggs flushed from the tubes at tubal sterilization showed no evidence of fertilization in women wearing copper IUD’s. Your reference material is quite outdated, alot has changed in the last 14 years. Let us also not neglect the fact that an IUD is one of the LEAST used forms of birth control therefore making it not a research priority. And I'm not sure about the "eggs flushed part" since they don't due sterilization procedures on pregnant women, why would you expect to find a fertilized egg in a sterilization procedure? I think we got sidetracked.. again how does this bear on what would happen if abortion was illegal? The studies that were done on IUD’s are older because they were used more frequently in this country in the past. IUD’s aren’t very common at all in this country; however, they are much more common in other countries. These studies are still being quoted in the latest OB/GYN textbooks and Novak’s Gynecology and Comprehensive Gynecology are very reputable sources. Everything I stated is supported in both. This is the gist of the study that I mentioned: They looked at women wearing IUD’s and women who were using no form of birth control. These women then underwent tubal sterilization soon after ovulation. These women had unprotected sex before ovulation. Normal fertilized ova were found in about half the patients who used no form of birth control, however, there were no eggs found in the women wearing the IUD’s. None of the women in the study above would have had positive pregnancy tests because it was too early. There are other studies. This was just one example. As far as getting sidetracked, you were the one that brought it up in reference to abortion. Getting late here in Georgia. Gotta go to bed. Hasta manana. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,111 #88 April 19, 2004 >I do not support abortion. Not in the case of rape, accidental >pregnancy, or even in the case that the mother could "potentially" >die.. Their are very few definites in life. Let me post a hypothetical situation to you. You discover you are the father of twins. One has a severe defect; she will certainly not survive more than a few minutes outside the mother. The other is healthy. The odds of premature labor at around the 25 month timeframe is pretty high. You can have a selective reduction done to give the healthy child a very good chance of making it to 35 weeks. What do you and your wife do? To me, that's not a hypothetical question. I am glad that parents and doctors rather than the courts can still make those sorts of decisions when they have to be made. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #89 April 19, 2004 QuoteEggs flushed from the tubes at tubal sterilization showed no evidence of fertilization in women wearing copper IUD’s. Your reference material is quite outdated, alot has changed in the last 14 years. Let us also not neglect the fact that an IUD is one of the LEAST used forms of birth control therefore making it not a research priority. And I'm not sure about the "eggs flushed part" since they don't due sterilization procedures on pregnant women, why would you expect to find a fertilized egg in a sterilization procedure? I think we got sidetracked.. again how does this bear on what would happen if abortion was illegal? The studies that were done on IUD’s are older because they were used more frequently in this country in the past. IUD’s aren’t very common at all in this country; however, they are much more common in other countries. These studies are still being quoted in the latest OB/GYN textbooks and Novak’s Gynecology and Comprehensive Gynecology are very reputable sources. Everything I stated is supported in both. This is the gist of the study that I mentioned: They looked at women wearing IUD’s and women who were using no form of birth control. These women then underwent tubal sterilization soon after ovulation. These women had unprotected sex before ovulation. Normal fertilized ova were found in about half the patients who used no form of birth control, however, there were no eggs found in the women wearing the IUD’s. None of the women in the study above would have had positive pregnancy tests because it was too early. There are other studies. This was just one example. As far as getting sidetracked, you were the one that brought it up in reference to abortion. Getting late here in Georgia. Gotta go to bed. Hasta manana. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RoadRash 0 #90 April 19, 2004 QuoteI guess you have nothing to contribute to the thread, since you obviously missed the point. It must be hard to believe so strongly in something that you can't see the nose in front of your face. So, contribute... what possible results do you see if abortion was outlawed. If your so passionate, back it up, since you volunteered to participate. I think he offered an opinion, as I did, and you have the choice to respect it or just plain ignore it...but let's not start getting snippy towards one another...oh, and I offered an opinion, and never recieved a response...guess it wasn't the opinion you were looking for......Like Anvils... ~R+R~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Fly the friendly skies...^_^...})ii({...^_~... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #91 April 19, 2004 I'm out after this. If I were you, seriously though, I'd learn exactly how the IUD works if I was using it as birth control. I'm not. I'm just a man remember. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
misskriss 0 #92 April 19, 2004 QuoteI think he offered an opinion, as I did, and you have the choice to respect it or just plain ignore it...but let's not start getting snippy towards one another...oh, and I offered an opinion, and never recieved a response...guess it wasn't the opinion you were looking for......Like Anvils...Quote I think she did reply.. just not exactly to your name... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Scary viewpoint. I'm glad I made it through your standard of whether I'd be allowed to be born or not. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I never set a standard, you have not understood my examples. These were only a couple of the scenarios in which women seek abortions, not a standard by which to have or not have an abortion. I was un-planned as well. Please do NOT CALL IT UNWANTED, because unless you were raised by someone besides your biological parents due to choice then you WERE WANTED, and simply unexpected. Do not confuse yourself *unless you are one of these* with the millions of children ALREADY who wonder why their parents didn't want or love them..what did they do wrong? That is an emotional scar that ruins lives, no joke. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bodyflight.Net 0 #93 April 19, 2004 No I read it, but again, it offered nothing new on the subject and in fact misrepresented my original post. So no I didn't bother.. As if I set forth guidelines on who should be born and who shouldn't, I could tell by your first contribution that you were not willing to discuss the issue since you were not reading everything. You can read my comments to that here http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1039912#1039912 If you are saying that we would have more people in the world as a result of abortion becoming illegal, I think that was already well stipulated, don't you? This is not about being for or against abortion, there have been a great many of those threads here already, I don't personally care which side of the issue you are on, anymore than you should care about what I feel about it to talk about this. We are discussing the possible reprocussions of such a law that would make the procedure illegal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bodyflight.Net 0 #94 April 19, 2004 I have to rely on the manufacturer and my doctor. Thanks for the tip... I'm impressed at your medical knowledge though... smart people help both sides of every cause... keep at it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TheAnvil 0 #95 April 19, 2004 Bodyflight, Anvil, cut it out. Two deletions/edits so far.Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bodyflight.Net 0 #96 April 19, 2004 #7 Women would still seek abortions, legal or not. That was your addition to the list, correct? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #97 April 19, 2004 Warning, thread drift ahead... QuoteClaiming to be 'pro-choice' given their school vouchers position helps redefine hypocrisy - but then again, they seem to specialize in earning the 'hyocrite' label. I used to have a bumper sticker that read "I'm Pro Choice on Everything". You can get one at the Libertarian Party's on line store.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,587 #98 April 19, 2004 QuoteIn the future, for the purpose of conservative stomachs everywhere, please refrain from using 'pro-choice' and go with 'pro-abortion' instead. Given the anti-choice sentiments of the left with regards to schools, it just doesn't comport with the party of abortion's platform as a whole. huh? In other words, because a political party doesn't agree with what you would choose for other people's children, you don't want them to be able to use the word "choice" in an issue where their definition of "OK actions" includes more (restrain yourself now) -- choices? QuoteWhile I have absolutely no doubt that abortion is murder, part of that is based upon faith. I believe that life begins at conception, but I cannot factually prove this until a certain point in the pregnancy. That being said, I cannot support a complete ban on abortions prior to this VERY SUBJECTIVE point, because I would be basing such a decision upon faith, and thereby imposing my faith upon others. I believe preventing such an imposition is the true intent of the first ammendment (which doesn't state 'separation of church and state' anywhere, ACLU clowns). In other words, you would like your faith imposed, but by someone else. At least that's what it sounds like. What is that subjective point? Brain waves? Fingers? Heartbeat? Viability? With or without a breathing tube, feeding tube, etc? QuoteHowever, an even cursory glance at the pregnancy process reveals that there IS a point where that zygote is alive. You can operate on it, sense its heartbeat, sense its brainwaves, see it forming, etc. At that very subjective point, it is simply inconceivable that a human life has not been created - a life with inalienable rights. You can implant it when it's still just a few cells. Does that make it alive? And what differentiates that human life from other life, and makes it more sacred? Legislation, mainly. Not that I think it's wrong, but it's mainly legislation. Used to be considered OK to work children; to put old people out to die. It's still OK to kill people in the name of justice. So as a society, we have to agree on what defines "OK" in the handling of human, potentially human, and formerly human, life. And if you disagree, that doesn't necessarily make either you or the others wrong. If your beliefs are based on religious feelings, then you have a basis. If they're personal, then they're personal. QuoteNow banning the procedure except when the health of the mother is in question is perfectly acceptable from an Anvil point of view. Which health? Physical or mental? Does mental health count? Would that be life-endangering health, or just life-limiting health? QuoteMy main problem with the left-wingers on this issue is their inability to show a video of what they support. Huh? I've seen plenty of pictures of blobs of tissue. I've seen what pads after a particularly heavy period look like -- that's what an early miscarriage or abortion looks like, too. I'll admit it doesn't make for very good video, though. If you're talking the kind of late-term abortion (e.g. after 20 weeks) where you have a baby with a potential for some quality of life, well, that's different -- that's a baby. And maybe, just maybe, sometimes the parents have some say in how that life will be conducted. Is an abortion in the case of a baby that will certainly die within minutes or days without heroic measures (e.g. anencephaly), and then have a severely reduced quality of life (e.g. trisomy 13). Do the parents have the right to make the decision on care after the baby is born full-term? If so, why would they not have the right to make that decision early? QuoteJust like they'll NEVER proudly proclaim their support of racial discriminatory programs, they lack the courage to show the public what they support. Conservatives have it wrong too, trying to impose their faith on others, Again, you don't like one topic, so by default they're wrong on everything. It should be possible to work on points one at a time, rather than forbidding the use of "choice" because you feel yours has been limited in some other arena. As a by-the-by, if abortion becomes illegal, it won't be all at once; it will be piece by piece, and by making it harder and harder for doctors to perform them. And then there will be more and more illegitimate babies born of ignorant, or even stupid and careless mothers. But that's OK, because then we can punish those mothers for being ignorant, careless, and stupid, by not providing help for their children. Education, and free birth control, would go a long way toward making abortion far less common. And easier access to good child care would help more of those illegitimate children. The ones with the careless mothers too -- if all children on welfare had to go to early child care, while their mothers went to work education classes, well, ya know, maybe the children would be exposed to something besides TV all day. And maybe not. No guarantees. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TheAnvil 0 #99 April 19, 2004 I'm not playing this reindeer game in an effort to not piss off billvon, as I've apparently done already for reasons unbeknownst / unfathomable to me. Vinny will write no more in this thread. PM me if you want to chat about it. I stand by all I've written. Vinny the AnvilVinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #100 April 19, 2004 Quoteshe will certainly not survive more than a few minutes outside the mother. This is IMPOSSIBLE to know.. Babies survive every day that should be dead. Helen Keller was a pretty interesting character as well.. Does a blind and deaf child fit in the "eject" category? Some day we will know if our unborn children are blind and deaf I am sure.. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next Page 4 of 13 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. 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Bodyflight.Net 0 #93 April 19, 2004 No I read it, but again, it offered nothing new on the subject and in fact misrepresented my original post. So no I didn't bother.. As if I set forth guidelines on who should be born and who shouldn't, I could tell by your first contribution that you were not willing to discuss the issue since you were not reading everything. You can read my comments to that here http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1039912#1039912 If you are saying that we would have more people in the world as a result of abortion becoming illegal, I think that was already well stipulated, don't you? This is not about being for or against abortion, there have been a great many of those threads here already, I don't personally care which side of the issue you are on, anymore than you should care about what I feel about it to talk about this. We are discussing the possible reprocussions of such a law that would make the procedure illegal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bodyflight.Net 0 #94 April 19, 2004 I have to rely on the manufacturer and my doctor. Thanks for the tip... I'm impressed at your medical knowledge though... smart people help both sides of every cause... keep at it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TheAnvil 0 #95 April 19, 2004 Bodyflight, Anvil, cut it out. Two deletions/edits so far.Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bodyflight.Net 0 #96 April 19, 2004 #7 Women would still seek abortions, legal or not. That was your addition to the list, correct? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #97 April 19, 2004 Warning, thread drift ahead... QuoteClaiming to be 'pro-choice' given their school vouchers position helps redefine hypocrisy - but then again, they seem to specialize in earning the 'hyocrite' label. I used to have a bumper sticker that read "I'm Pro Choice on Everything". You can get one at the Libertarian Party's on line store.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,587 #98 April 19, 2004 QuoteIn the future, for the purpose of conservative stomachs everywhere, please refrain from using 'pro-choice' and go with 'pro-abortion' instead. Given the anti-choice sentiments of the left with regards to schools, it just doesn't comport with the party of abortion's platform as a whole. huh? In other words, because a political party doesn't agree with what you would choose for other people's children, you don't want them to be able to use the word "choice" in an issue where their definition of "OK actions" includes more (restrain yourself now) -- choices? QuoteWhile I have absolutely no doubt that abortion is murder, part of that is based upon faith. I believe that life begins at conception, but I cannot factually prove this until a certain point in the pregnancy. That being said, I cannot support a complete ban on abortions prior to this VERY SUBJECTIVE point, because I would be basing such a decision upon faith, and thereby imposing my faith upon others. I believe preventing such an imposition is the true intent of the first ammendment (which doesn't state 'separation of church and state' anywhere, ACLU clowns). In other words, you would like your faith imposed, but by someone else. At least that's what it sounds like. What is that subjective point? Brain waves? Fingers? Heartbeat? Viability? With or without a breathing tube, feeding tube, etc? QuoteHowever, an even cursory glance at the pregnancy process reveals that there IS a point where that zygote is alive. You can operate on it, sense its heartbeat, sense its brainwaves, see it forming, etc. At that very subjective point, it is simply inconceivable that a human life has not been created - a life with inalienable rights. You can implant it when it's still just a few cells. Does that make it alive? And what differentiates that human life from other life, and makes it more sacred? Legislation, mainly. Not that I think it's wrong, but it's mainly legislation. Used to be considered OK to work children; to put old people out to die. It's still OK to kill people in the name of justice. So as a society, we have to agree on what defines "OK" in the handling of human, potentially human, and formerly human, life. And if you disagree, that doesn't necessarily make either you or the others wrong. If your beliefs are based on religious feelings, then you have a basis. If they're personal, then they're personal. QuoteNow banning the procedure except when the health of the mother is in question is perfectly acceptable from an Anvil point of view. Which health? Physical or mental? Does mental health count? Would that be life-endangering health, or just life-limiting health? QuoteMy main problem with the left-wingers on this issue is their inability to show a video of what they support. Huh? I've seen plenty of pictures of blobs of tissue. I've seen what pads after a particularly heavy period look like -- that's what an early miscarriage or abortion looks like, too. I'll admit it doesn't make for very good video, though. If you're talking the kind of late-term abortion (e.g. after 20 weeks) where you have a baby with a potential for some quality of life, well, that's different -- that's a baby. And maybe, just maybe, sometimes the parents have some say in how that life will be conducted. Is an abortion in the case of a baby that will certainly die within minutes or days without heroic measures (e.g. anencephaly), and then have a severely reduced quality of life (e.g. trisomy 13). Do the parents have the right to make the decision on care after the baby is born full-term? If so, why would they not have the right to make that decision early? QuoteJust like they'll NEVER proudly proclaim their support of racial discriminatory programs, they lack the courage to show the public what they support. Conservatives have it wrong too, trying to impose their faith on others, Again, you don't like one topic, so by default they're wrong on everything. It should be possible to work on points one at a time, rather than forbidding the use of "choice" because you feel yours has been limited in some other arena. As a by-the-by, if abortion becomes illegal, it won't be all at once; it will be piece by piece, and by making it harder and harder for doctors to perform them. And then there will be more and more illegitimate babies born of ignorant, or even stupid and careless mothers. But that's OK, because then we can punish those mothers for being ignorant, careless, and stupid, by not providing help for their children. Education, and free birth control, would go a long way toward making abortion far less common. And easier access to good child care would help more of those illegitimate children. The ones with the careless mothers too -- if all children on welfare had to go to early child care, while their mothers went to work education classes, well, ya know, maybe the children would be exposed to something besides TV all day. And maybe not. No guarantees. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TheAnvil 0 #99 April 19, 2004 I'm not playing this reindeer game in an effort to not piss off billvon, as I've apparently done already for reasons unbeknownst / unfathomable to me. Vinny will write no more in this thread. PM me if you want to chat about it. I stand by all I've written. Vinny the AnvilVinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #100 April 19, 2004 Quoteshe will certainly not survive more than a few minutes outside the mother. This is IMPOSSIBLE to know.. Babies survive every day that should be dead. Helen Keller was a pretty interesting character as well.. Does a blind and deaf child fit in the "eject" category? Some day we will know if our unborn children are blind and deaf I am sure.. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next Page 4 of 13 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
TheAnvil 0 #95 April 19, 2004 Bodyflight, Anvil, cut it out. Two deletions/edits so far.Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bodyflight.Net 0 #96 April 19, 2004 #7 Women would still seek abortions, legal or not. That was your addition to the list, correct? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #97 April 19, 2004 Warning, thread drift ahead... QuoteClaiming to be 'pro-choice' given their school vouchers position helps redefine hypocrisy - but then again, they seem to specialize in earning the 'hyocrite' label. I used to have a bumper sticker that read "I'm Pro Choice on Everything". You can get one at the Libertarian Party's on line store.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,587 #98 April 19, 2004 QuoteIn the future, for the purpose of conservative stomachs everywhere, please refrain from using 'pro-choice' and go with 'pro-abortion' instead. Given the anti-choice sentiments of the left with regards to schools, it just doesn't comport with the party of abortion's platform as a whole. huh? In other words, because a political party doesn't agree with what you would choose for other people's children, you don't want them to be able to use the word "choice" in an issue where their definition of "OK actions" includes more (restrain yourself now) -- choices? QuoteWhile I have absolutely no doubt that abortion is murder, part of that is based upon faith. I believe that life begins at conception, but I cannot factually prove this until a certain point in the pregnancy. That being said, I cannot support a complete ban on abortions prior to this VERY SUBJECTIVE point, because I would be basing such a decision upon faith, and thereby imposing my faith upon others. I believe preventing such an imposition is the true intent of the first ammendment (which doesn't state 'separation of church and state' anywhere, ACLU clowns). In other words, you would like your faith imposed, but by someone else. At least that's what it sounds like. What is that subjective point? Brain waves? Fingers? Heartbeat? Viability? With or without a breathing tube, feeding tube, etc? QuoteHowever, an even cursory glance at the pregnancy process reveals that there IS a point where that zygote is alive. You can operate on it, sense its heartbeat, sense its brainwaves, see it forming, etc. At that very subjective point, it is simply inconceivable that a human life has not been created - a life with inalienable rights. You can implant it when it's still just a few cells. Does that make it alive? And what differentiates that human life from other life, and makes it more sacred? Legislation, mainly. Not that I think it's wrong, but it's mainly legislation. Used to be considered OK to work children; to put old people out to die. It's still OK to kill people in the name of justice. So as a society, we have to agree on what defines "OK" in the handling of human, potentially human, and formerly human, life. And if you disagree, that doesn't necessarily make either you or the others wrong. If your beliefs are based on religious feelings, then you have a basis. If they're personal, then they're personal. QuoteNow banning the procedure except when the health of the mother is in question is perfectly acceptable from an Anvil point of view. Which health? Physical or mental? Does mental health count? Would that be life-endangering health, or just life-limiting health? QuoteMy main problem with the left-wingers on this issue is their inability to show a video of what they support. Huh? I've seen plenty of pictures of blobs of tissue. I've seen what pads after a particularly heavy period look like -- that's what an early miscarriage or abortion looks like, too. I'll admit it doesn't make for very good video, though. If you're talking the kind of late-term abortion (e.g. after 20 weeks) where you have a baby with a potential for some quality of life, well, that's different -- that's a baby. And maybe, just maybe, sometimes the parents have some say in how that life will be conducted. Is an abortion in the case of a baby that will certainly die within minutes or days without heroic measures (e.g. anencephaly), and then have a severely reduced quality of life (e.g. trisomy 13). Do the parents have the right to make the decision on care after the baby is born full-term? If so, why would they not have the right to make that decision early? QuoteJust like they'll NEVER proudly proclaim their support of racial discriminatory programs, they lack the courage to show the public what they support. Conservatives have it wrong too, trying to impose their faith on others, Again, you don't like one topic, so by default they're wrong on everything. It should be possible to work on points one at a time, rather than forbidding the use of "choice" because you feel yours has been limited in some other arena. As a by-the-by, if abortion becomes illegal, it won't be all at once; it will be piece by piece, and by making it harder and harder for doctors to perform them. And then there will be more and more illegitimate babies born of ignorant, or even stupid and careless mothers. But that's OK, because then we can punish those mothers for being ignorant, careless, and stupid, by not providing help for their children. Education, and free birth control, would go a long way toward making abortion far less common. And easier access to good child care would help more of those illegitimate children. The ones with the careless mothers too -- if all children on welfare had to go to early child care, while their mothers went to work education classes, well, ya know, maybe the children would be exposed to something besides TV all day. And maybe not. No guarantees. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #99 April 19, 2004 I'm not playing this reindeer game in an effort to not piss off billvon, as I've apparently done already for reasons unbeknownst / unfathomable to me. Vinny will write no more in this thread. PM me if you want to chat about it. I stand by all I've written. Vinny the AnvilVinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #100 April 19, 2004 Quoteshe will certainly not survive more than a few minutes outside the mother. This is IMPOSSIBLE to know.. Babies survive every day that should be dead. Helen Keller was a pretty interesting character as well.. Does a blind and deaf child fit in the "eject" category? Some day we will know if our unborn children are blind and deaf I am sure.. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
