Suppose Abortion becomes illegal..what then?

[Lindsey 0]

I'm sorry I only have 3 years of medical school, but my OB-Gyn textbook (rotation that I'm on right now) disagrees with your wife.

Edited to add: For the sake of argument I'll say that I agree with you, though. It doesn't matter. Would you readily accept a medication whose "side effect" for your already-born child was death? If you are so vehement in your argument against abortion, I just wonder how you accept this effect of oral contraception.

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[pajarito 0]

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My cousin has diabetes. She was diagnosed only a few months before the rape, and her disease wasn't under control very well at that point.

Pregnancies for pre-teens are dangerous simply because a twelve year old is a lot smaller than a 15 or 16 year old. Sure, "back in the day" a lot of 12 year olds got pregnant... and a lot of them died in childbirth.

A doctor would have to make the call as to whether it would be too risky. My wife has had to make those decision. It still bothers her a lot, though. Like I said, I'd save the mother first. In my mind, I wouldn't blame her in that instance.

[pajarito 0]

I'm using Novak's Gynecology 12th Edition and Comprehensive Gynecology. Now, are you telling me that, in the case of either OC's or IUD's, their modes of operation are also to prevent implantation?

[freeflybella 0]

I'm wasn't saying all aborted pregnancies are the result of accidents. Sometimes it is irresponsibility. Sometimes is lack of education, lack of guidance and more.

(I was responding to the idea that everytime you have sex, you should be willing and able to have a child as a result.)

All of these things (education, a sense of responsibility, self-respect, parental guidance) should be the focus in finding a way to reduce the occurances of abortion - by parents, by teachers, by peer pressure, by example...

Summarily outlawing abortion addresses the symptom, not the disease.

I'm all for making abortion obsolete!

(Re: your avatar. I meant, how could I not defer when 'you' are giving me that 'look' )

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[Muenkel 0]

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>I cannot fathom how anyone who believes in God or a God would
>actually think that they have the absolute answer to this question.

We answer it all the time. We can remove life support from someone when we (not god) consider them dead. Sure, god could pull off a miracle and we are 'defying his will' etc by removing life support, but then we're defying his will by keeping them _on_ life support to begin with. "How dare you defy god's will by keeping him on a vent" etc etc.

We have medical technology today that make us sort of godlike, at least as seen by someone from 100 A.D. We can revive the dead. We can create new life where otherwise it could not come about. We can replace body parts with artificial and donated parts. Saying that we shouldn't do things because we "can't know more than god" is foolish. We do the best we can based on what we know today, and we will continue to do so.

Bill,

You and I are never going to agree on this one. You seem to see things from a scientific point of view. I see things from a spiritual point of view.

Sorry, but that's who I am.

Chris

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Chris

[Lindsey 0]

Yes, but it really is inconsequential since the result is the same whether it's an intended effect or a side effect. I edited my last post to reflect that.

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I'm using Novak's Gynecology 12th Edition and Comprehensive Gynecology. Now, are you telling me that, in the case of either OC's or IUD's, their modes of operation are also to prevent implantation?

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Muenkel 0]

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would seem that an omnipotent, omniscient God already knows and planned for who would and would not have an abortion so you might as well leave him out of it

I can't. He's who I will stand before on my judgement day.

Chris

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Chris

[pajarito 0]

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Yes, but it really is inconsequential since the result is the same whether it's an intended effect or a side effect. I edited my last post to reflect that.

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I'm using Novak's Gynecology 12th Edition and Comprehensive Gynecology. Now, are you telling me that, in the case of either OC's or IUD's, their modes of operation are also to prevent implantation?

Yes...but the cases are rare. You're comment stating that "many" are aborted unknowingly leads me to think that there is a significant amount. It's not intended, however, it does happen. IUD (copper): Intended to produce white blood cells and elliminate the sperm. OC: Intended to inhibit ovulation.

[Zenister 0]

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would seem that an omnipotent, omniscient God already knows and planned for who would and would not have an abortion so you might as well leave him out of it

I can't. He's who I will stand before on my judgement day.

of course that leaves it up to him to judge, which you seem all to ready to do for others here on earth...

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Muenkel 0]

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of course that leaves it up to him to judge, which you seem all to ready to do for others here on earth...

Who have I judged?

Chris

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Chris

[lawrocket 3]

Here here!

Thanks for the dialogue, bella!

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[freeflybella 0]

And thanks to you! Who knew there could be room for love in the abortion debate.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[Muenkel 0]

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And thanks to you! Who knew there could be room for love in the abortion debate.

There is. Misskriss and I had a great conversation via pm's last night, even though we are on different sides of the issue.
Chris

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Chris

[rhino 0]

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of course that leaves it up to him to judge, which you seem all to ready to do for others here on earth...

He isn't judging anyone? What in the hell are you talking about?

[Lindsey 0]

I don't know where you are coming up with the "this is rare" statement. What makes you think that? Especially if one considers that often people do not take medications as prescribed, then it would only be reasonable to assume that ovulation occurs despite being on the pill. I don't know of any studies that quantify the number of pregnancies that are stopped due to the suppression of ovulation vs. the avoidance of implantation. If you want to study the pathophysiology involved, I think it would become clear to you that it is EXTREMELY likely that many pregnancies are inadvertantly aborted due to atrophy of the endometrium caused by oral contraceptives.

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Yes, but it really is inconsequential since the result is the same whether it's an intended effect or a side effect. I edited my last post to reflect that.

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I'm using Novak's Gynecology 12th Edition and Comprehensive Gynecology. Now, are you telling me that, in the case of either OC's or IUD's, their modes of operation are also to prevent implantation?

Yes...but the cases are rare. You're comment stating that "many" are aborted unknowingly leads me to think that there is a significant amount. It's not intended, however, it does happen. IUD (copper): Intended to produce white blood cells and elliminate the sperm. OC: Intended to inhibit ovulation.

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[pajarito 0]

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I'm sorry I only have 3 years of medical school, but my OB-Gyn textbook (rotation that I'm on right now) disagrees with your wife.

Edited to add: For the sake of argument I'll say that I agree with you, though. It doesn't matter. Would you readily accept a medication whose "side effect" for your already-born child was death? If you are so vehement in your argument against abortion, I just wonder how you accept this effect of oral contraception.

I didn't get to respond to your addition.

I personally don't have a problem with the kind of birth control that doesn't impede implantation and further development. I understand that there is a risk, however small, of preventing implantation but that's not the primary goal. Many disagree with me on those grounds as well as some on spiritual grounds (i.e. Practicing Catholics). In my mind, it is an acceptable risk. I weigh the pro's and con's and find it acceptable. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. There are side effects to many medications. Some vaccinations given to toddlers are questionable in that they really don't know the long term effects yet. I found those risks acceptable also, however, and my kids got them. It's a judgement call. I have the best interest of the children (or potential children) in mind, though. That's just me.

[pajarito 0]

Give me some time to look it up.

[Zenister 0]

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of course that leaves it up to him to judge, which you seem all to ready to do for others here on earth...

Who have I judged?

your supporting law that makes life decisions for another aware,thinking adult. By taking away their freedom to decide what happend to their body your are attempting to impose your morality on them, this is a judgement and because they dont make the decisions your morality agrees with you find them wanting (lacking your morals) and support a social attempt to eliminate that freedom of choice.

as i said, an omnipotent, omniscient divinity will not allow any deaths that interfere with his plan, why dont you just leave it up to him and leave the decisions where they rightfully rest, with the mother? if God has a problem with it i'm sure he'll make it known one way or another, he certainly doesn’t need you lobbying for him…

or are you going to continue to second guess God?

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[pajarito 0]

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I don't know where you are coming up with the "this is rare" statement. What makes you think that? Especially if one considers that often people do not take medications as prescribed, then it would only be reasonable to assume that ovulation occurs despite being on the pill. I don't know of any studies that quantify the number of pregnancies that are stopped due to the suppression of ovulation vs. the avoidance of implantation. If you want to study the pathophysiology involved, I think it would become clear to you that it is EXTREMELY likely that many pregnancies are inadvertantly aborted due to atrophy of the endometrium caused by oral contraceptives.

I was thinking about another study concerning something else. Sorry. Let me try and summarize what I’m trying to say and maybe that will clear up my point. Again…I’m not a doctor but I play one on TV.

Correct me if I’m wrong but OC’s have about a 98-99% success rate in preventing ovulation, correct? Therefore, that 1-2% is all we’re talking about. If a woman is using an OC and she has “ATROPHY” of her endometrium because of it and she forgets to take her pill, ovulation might occur and implantation might not be able to occur. I agree with you on this. However, if a person takes the pill as prescribed, it would be “rare” that ovulation and fertilization would occur creating the possibility of the prevention of implantation because there wouldn’t be anything to implant. The primary mode of action for OC’s is to prevent ovulation. I agree that their goal is also simply to stop pregnancy and that stopping implantation (which is a possibility when taking the pill) is a way of doing that; however it is further down the list. That’s not what they’re trying to do in order to prevent pregnancy. Again, if taken properly and with the low percentage of failure to do what it is designed to do, I find it acceptable as a means of birth control in reference to this topic.

[Lindsey 0]

I agree (I don't think we're supposed to do that on here....lol)

Lindsey

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[pajarito 0]

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I agree (I don't think we're supposed to do that on here....lol)

Lindsey

Nobody else does....that's for sure!

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[Vallerina 2]

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Correct me if I’m wrong but OC’s have about a 98-99% success rate in preventing ovulation, correct?

No, there is a 99% chance that a woman won't get pregnant if she takes her birth control pill perfectly. There is a 92% chance that a woman won't get pregnant with "typical" use. I have not seen the percentages of ovulation with typical/perfect use.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[pajarito 0]

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Correct me if I’m wrong but OC’s have about a 98-99% success rate in preventing ovulation, correct?

No, there is a 99% chance that a woman won't get pregnant if she takes her birth control pill perfectly. There is a 92% chance that a woman won't get pregnant with "typical" use. I have not seen the percentages of ovulation with typical/perfect use.

OK....I'll go with the 99% measurement. It makes it even more rare that prevention of implantation would even be an issue when using the pill properly.

[rocketdog 0]

Shouldn't the parents have some accountibility/responsiblity -- CONSEQUENCES -- for their behavior?

What shall we do then? Become a society that sacrifices human lives (or fetus's, depending on your viewpoint) for sexual "pleasure"?

~hollywood

see the world! http://gorocketdog.blogspot.com

[pajarito 0]

Just wanted to add a few things to what I've already said concerning OC's. As for modes of action in preventing pregnancy, there are more but several are listed below.

1. Primary: Prevent ovulation.
2. Thicken cervical mucus limiting sperm mobility.
3. Inhibit capacitation (changes sperm goes through in order to be capable of penetrating the egg with the release of enzymes) and sperm survivability.
4. Alters mobility through the tube thus imparing transport of both ova and sperm.
5. Preventing implantation by causing changes in the endometrial lining.

Point being, the whole "prevention of implantation" thing is way down the list and probably wouldn't happen (i.e. rare if the pill is taken properly). Therefore, acceptable to use if you are opposed to abortion.