Spain Succumbs

[Botellines 0]

Probably AQ DOES think that they changed our will with theyr bombing, and to some extent, the bombing have influenced the poll. Don´t you think it is normal? If 4 days before election, Irak attack your troops and kill 200 soldiers and severely wound 1200 troops, Bush will NOT be elected in your country and Kerry WILL pull out the troops in Irak. It seems that what you want from Spain is to set example so it will not happen to the USA. Something by the way that i am not sure the USA would do for the rest of the world.
Now, if we had supported your war all along, this terrorist attack would have changed nothing. The USA didn´t have Spain as an ally in this war, only Aznar, who happened to be at that time the president of the government (not prime minister, Gawain). We all Spaniards support your cause against terror, at least for a time and if you don´t take your preventive war policy farther. We DON´T support war on american interest behalf, and we are not going to die so halliburton becomes richer. You want help from us to fight terrorism, you got it. You want us to die so less of your troops will die in the name of oil and money. Sorry, i am not doing that. And believe me that this has nothing to do with guts or lack of, it is just common sense.
By the way, Spain is pulling the troops ONLY if the UN don´t take part of the government in Irak. You cannot swim and keep the clothes. Let the UN participate, and you will be able to get your troops out ina somewhat dignified manner, and less people will die. The problem is that then some rich people will make less money.

Pajarito, i find your words quite offensive. I was trying to write a comeback without disrespecting too many people but i couldn´t. Everybody is someone´s bitch. Do you know who your bitch is?, i do it starts with an H.

[Botellines 0]

The terrorist attack did NOT change what we felt, or our will. The only thing it did was to make us do something we should have done before, get rid of a government that does not represent us. In any case, the polls are never accurate (specially if they are paid by the government) so we will never know what would have happened if the terrorist attack had not taken place.
By the way, no one has giving me a better solution to the problem. Out of the two options we had which one would you have taken?

[mikkey 0]

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Could you enlighten people why Spain is not a democracy?

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Sorry, I made a mistake, Spain is a Parliamentary Monarchy (not a constitutional monarchy as I previously posted). Spain's Chief of State is King Juan Carlos I. The head of government is the Prime Minister. Do I need to offer a further explanation?

Well, only that you did put a major spin on things. For most people a system where parliament and government are elected by the people in free elections with constitutionally secured freedom rights is a democratic system. Saying that systems that do not exactly match the original definitions are not democratic is just shit stirring.

It is also important to note that Head of States in most democratic countries have very little influence (which is very different from the US). In most western countries (except e.g. France) the President or the Monarch have mostly a ceremonial role. The power lies with a chief minister / prime minister, his cabinet and parliament. Those prime ministers can very often do littel without parliamentary approval comapred to the US President.

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I understand Australia is a federal state system, which still recognizes the British Monarch as sovereign (and thus, Chief of State), and the head of governement being Prime Minister John Howard. I don't recall saying that Australia is "ruled" by the UK, but Australia does note Queen Elizabeth II as Chief of State. She is represented by Governor General-Maj. Gen. Michael Jeffrey (ret).

You were mixing issues and implying some UK control over Australian matters in an previous post, but that does not really matter. I see you have looked up some facts…. Well done.
Again it is important to understand that in countries like Australia the role of Head (not Chief) of State is ceremonial. This also applies to the UK. Difference in Australia is that the Queen has even less practical influence here because the role is "delegated" to the Governor General. The Governor General is in reality appointed ("recommended") by the Prime Minister. Prime Ministers (under the Westminster model) are appointed by the majority party in Parliament and can be changed between elections by the party.

Anyway we are way off topic.

Key point is that Spain is as democratic as any other western European country and they are proud of it. They had a very difficult time under Franco and the current King had a major role in converting to democracy 25 or so years ago. Saying "Spain is not a democracy" is misleading - really. Whilst I am against the Spanish pull out from Iraq, it is clearly the will of the Spanish people as expressed in the elections - and that is called democracy.

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[TheAnvil 0]

The fact that Aznar was ahead prior to these attacks doesn't comport well with your statements here.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[TomAiello 26]

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Don´t you think it is normal? If 4 days before election, Irak attack your troops and kill 200 soldiers and severely wound 1200 troops, Bush will NOT be elected in your country and Kerry WILL pull out the troops in Irak.

I think we're hitting a big cultural gap here.

I'd guess that a large scale terrorist attack on US soil days before the presidential election would give Bush a boost. Americans tend to react with a "oh, yeah, well I'm gonna come over and kick your butt, then!" attitude.

So, no, I don't think that's "normal" at all. At least, that reaction wouldn't be "normal" in the US, which may be where the different views are coming from, here.

Normal for Spain? Sure. Normal for the US? I don't think so.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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However, the framework of a Federal Republic (US) allows for a far better "democratic tradition" than a Constitutional Monarchy (Spain).

Bull shit, not many western consitutional or parliamentary monarchies where the candidate with the minority vote can become the leader, unlike a Federal Republic I know.

Unless off course your idea of a "democratic tradition" is that the minority rules.

Spain has been dealing with ETA for close to 42 years. They have been dealing with terrorism and terrorist before many of you were born and they certainly have not caved on those issues. Just shows the ignorance of many.

[Botellines 0]

Yes, but i am talking about how a terrorist attack can influence election. A terrorist attack in US soil would give Bush advantage, a terrorist attack to US troops on Irak would give advantage to Kerry.
A terrorist attack in Spain when the terrorist want money, or land (ETA) ot make us do something we don´t want will lead to nothing, just like what would happen in the USA. A terrorist attack when they want the same thing than we want, will lead to the actual situation.
Talking about polls. They are very biased, even the polls paid by the government (the most biased) showed that Zapatero was shortening the distance to Aznar. I am sure that some people changed the vote due to the terrorist attacks, but what this act of terror did mostly was to convince people who felt indiferently about politics take part in the election process

http://www.esmas.com/noticierostelevisa/internacionales/349999.html

[TomAiello 26]

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Yes, but i am talking about how a terrorist attack can influence election. A terrorist attack in US soil would give Bush advantage, a terrorist attack to US troops on Irak would give advantage to Kerry.

I'm not entirely willing to agree with that. I think it would depend on timing and the nature of the attack.

Regardless, the point I was trying to make was that the Spanish electorate reacted to a terrorist attack in Spain in the opposite way to what the U.S. electorate would likely do following a similar attack in the U.S. That doesn't mean that one is right or wrong--simply that the cultures of the two nations are sufficiently different to lead to different outcomes. Such a large difference is naturally going to cause misunderstanding between the peoples of Spain and the U.S., with Americans thinking "I can't believe what a bunch of wimps they are" and Spaniards thinking "I can't believe how bloodthirsty they are" about each other.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[PhillyKev 0]

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Benny and Botellines -

Al Quaeda tells Spain to get out of Iraq. Spain gets out of Iraq.

Hmm...you claim Spain hasn't succumbed...

Odd definition of succumb you have there.

You forgot step one. Spain said they wanted to get out of Iraq first.

Example...

I am going to have a cheeseburger for lunch.

You tell me to have a cheeseburger for lundh.

I have a cheeseburger for lunch.

Man, you must have used some kine of jedi mind trick to get me to go alone with your wishes. Puhleeze.

The timing sucks, makes it look like they're giving in to AQ, but they're doing what they said they wanted to do before the bombings. If they changed what they were planning to do, that would be giving in.

[TheAnvil 0]

Note to PK: Aznar said he was pulling out? really? odd - I don't recall that.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[PhillyKev 0]

No, but Zapatero did. And the majority of Spaniards agreed with his policy BEFORE the election. Along with his plans to vehemently fight radical islamic terrorism. Just as an FYI, that can be done without having troops in Iraq. In fact, I believe it could be done MORE effectively if we hadn't gone into Iraq.

People claim the bombings in Madrid were responisble for Zapatero's win. They very well may be true. But you're misinterpreting that the Spaniards voted for him because he was giving into terrorism. They voted for him because he had a more sound idea of battling terrorism than just supporting the US policy on Iraq. Then there's Aznar's blaming of ETA for the bombings which also influenced a lot of voters to vote the other way.

How much do you know about Zapatero and his proposed policies regarding terrorism other than the news snippets you've read about him wanting to pull out of Iraq? I also want us to pull out of Iraq as quickly as reasonable so that we can concentrate on the actual terrorists.

[TheAnvil 0]

So the majority of Spaniards agreed with Zapatero's policy, yet he was trailing in the polls...hmmm....that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Aznar's government initially suspecting ETA influenced voters to go the other way? Baloney. Rajoy was going to win handily until the bombings.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[PhillyKev 0]

Yes, 80-90% of Spaniards agreed that they should pull their troops out of Iraq and concentrate on fighting terrorism instead, before the bombings. Just because they agreed with that policy doesn't mean they agreed with all of his policies. After the attacks, like in the US, it galvanized the populace to want to do more to fight terrorism, so support went to Zapatero. Aznar's gov't wasn't fighting terrorism, they were fighting in Iraq. If you haven't realized yet that Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism then you will obviously miss this point.

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Rajoy was going to win handily until the bombings.

He was ahead by 5 points in the polls. What was the margin of error? Most I see are usually 3-5% margin of error. I wouldn't call that a sure thing.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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So the majority of Spaniards agreed with Zapatero's policy, yet he was trailing in the polls...hmmm....that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Why? do politicians in the US only get elected based on one policy? Or could it possibly be a combination of policies?

[TheAnvil 0]

Think that if you like. Regardless, a terrorist organization has now both influenced national elections of a sovereign nation AND the foreign policy of the same nation. Tsk tsk tsk. Pathetic.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[Botellines 0]

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So the majority of Spaniards agreed with Zapatero's policy, yet he was trailing in the polls...hmmm....that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Aznar's government initially suspecting ETA influenced voters to go the other way? Baloney. Rajoy was going to win handily until the bombings.

You don´t know what you are talking about, you where not here and you are not investigating this thoroughly, only enough to prove your point.
At first, everybody thought it was ETA, even myself, as i stated in another post. Then the suspicion of islamic terrorism started growing among the population. Then we found a pickup close to Alcala de Henares (where the trains started the journey and the bombs where planted) with 8 bomb fuses and several islamic tapes with the Coran in them. At that point everybody thought that it was islamic terrorism, the only doubt was wether ETA had provided with logistics (apparently they didnt). Still the government insisted that it was ETA (to do otherwise wouldn´t have been good for them). That versy same night (2 days before elections) there was on puvblic television a documental about Eta terrorism. That goes to show haw biased the pucblic television was. Just so you know, the public television should not be biased to any political party by law. a Journalist is about to loose his job because of misleading information toward the government cause.
Many people politically indiferent about the war in Irak voted against Aznar to punish him for such abuse.

http://www.noticiasdot.com/publicaciones/2004/0304/1603/noticias160304/noticias160304-1.htm

As you can see, there is much more into it that just us chickening out in a terrorist attack.
The poll showed than although PP was wining PSOE was getting close. add to this the people who felt indiferent about politics but because the bombs decided to vote for PSOE and people who thought that Aznar was lieing to us and you will realize if you are not blind that it is enough to change an election. I concede that maybe there could have been people who was going to vote Aznar and they changed the vote for the terrorist attack, but if so, i assure you that this is the exception, not the norm.

[PhillyKev 0]

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Think that if you like. Regardless, a terrorist organization has now both influenced national elections of a sovereign nation AND the foreign policy of the same nation. Tsk tsk tsk. Pathetic.

Did Ann Coulter tell you that? Because if you look at the evidence, especially foreign news sources, and don't just read the blurbs supporting your naive position, than you'll see that is completely ludicrous and insulting to the Spanish people.

[Jimbo 0]

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If you haven't realized yet that Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism then you will obviously miss this point.

Nothing to do with terrorism? NOTHING? What about that $25,000 payment to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers? If that's not sponsoring terrorism then I don't know what is.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[PhillyKev 0]

Ok, yeah I'll admit that. But that's a far cry from setting up terrorist bases and training camps and funding AQ organizations at the source. There are plenty of targets with that MO out there we should have been concentration on instead.

[kiltboy 0]

I had been staying out of this thread for a while but I have a couple of questions

I had a look at Afghanistan and it appears that Spain contributes troops to that area and continues to do so. Question #1 will Spain continue to provide troops to that area after the troops leave Iraq? I haven't heard anything, as the focus has been on Iraq, so I'm looking for information here.

As Al Qaeda (sp?) is still active around Afghanistan,
as the search for OBL continues, is it possible that intelligence that could have prevented the Madrid bombing was not gathered because assets were diverted to the war in Iraq?

Is it possible that had Spain not been in Iraq that the bombing in Madrid would have been in response to Spanish troops in Afghanistan? If so who believes that the Spanish troops would withdraw from Afghanistan?

David

http://www.afnorth.nato.int/ISAF/structure/structure_structure.htm

[TheAnvil 0]

- You misinterpret my remarks on ETA - I was using sarcasm. The ETA assumption was quite logical.

- Your link doesn't work for me.

- the timing of this withdrawal given the public demand from Al Quaeda is absolutely unconscionable. Does it mean the Spaniards are chickens, as you say? Not at all. Does it mean that the Spanish government is making a dumb move in foreign policy - YES.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[TheAnvil 0]

I, naive? Not by a long shot. The reason for the withdrawal internal to Spain could be the throwing of chicken bones by the third cousin of the King's nephew's half sister's third grade teacher's step-daughter rather than public opinion. The perception is the same - Al Quaeda says jump, the Spaniards are jumping. Politicians know this. They know better. Inconceivable and irresponsible.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[PhillyKev 0]

No, you're not naive, but I think your understanding of this particular issue is.

So nations should base policy on perception and not what is best for their nation? Keep an eye out on the near future. I believe you will see a wider and more aggressive fight against terrorism by Spain, it just won't be in Iraq. I don't see how that is giving in to terrorism.

[rgoper 0]

i'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the citizens of each and every country involved in the Iraq ordeal wasn't even consulted before their perspective countries were involved (or not involved) in this tragic event. the actions of a country do not reflect the views of it's citizens, spain is a prime example. don't blame the people of a country for that particular countries actions. it's up to all of us, where ever we reside to make our views and thoughts known in the upcoming elections, i think they will be most enlightning.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[TheAnvil 0]

The increased activity of Spain against terrorism will occur. It's a result of direct terrorist actions against its citizens.

THE SPANIARDS DID WHAT AL QUAEDA TOLD THEM TO DO. AL QUAEDA BEING EMBOLDENED BY THIS RESPONSE IS A GUARANTEED FACT.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!