Spain Succumbs

[skydyvr 0]

Quote

How many times do you have to be told that the Spanish people did not to be involved in this war for you to realize that this was the path that they should have taken all along and is not some kind of giving in to terrorists?

I get your point, but the original decision to participate in the coalition should have been seen to the end regardless of it's unpopular beginnings. Spain's election of the new govt and the resulting pullout is a direct reponse to terrorist bidding.

If the trains hadn't been bombed, the troops wouldn't be leaving.

. . =(_8^(1)

[sdgregory 0]

Quote

Would you have seen this as ok if they hadn't been recently bombed or if they hadn't released the OBL truce tape? I seriously doubt it?

Are you asking me whether you seriously doubt it? Are you questioning whether you seriously doubt it?


Anyway,

If there had been no OBL truce/ Terrorist bombings and Spain decided to withdraw I would just be calling them pussies. But I would agree that the government was doing the right thing because the people wanted it.


However that is not the case here. And THAT is the point. Therefore, this was irresponsible timing on the part of Spain, no matter what their true reasoning was. I am not saying that they are lying about their reasoning, I am saying they should have considered how it would appear to terrorists.

Your GI joe argument does not wash. GI Joe signed an enlistment term with a discharge date planned well ahead of time and written down. Spain did not openly say on this day we leave.

It can be easily proven that GI Joe's time was up with a simple flash of paper. Show me where Spain had a document saying they had planned on this day to leave and then bombings and OBL occurred and I might believe, hell the terrorosts might even buy it. But that is not going to happen. Therfore I stand by what I said.

[Botellines 0]

If you actually read my whole post you will read that i called our ex-president Puppet. So not only i disaprove your government. I am not so naive to think that all the wars are provoked by the US, only many. But if the US actually pull out, the whole situation in the middle east will be much better (Just in case you care witch i doubt). And on top of that more US soldiers will return home alive.
If you pretended to be funny besides insulting my intellingence with your post, sorry, it was way too long. I suggest keeping jokes to one or two lines.

[lawrocket 3]

THe US can't pull out yet. We've got a "pottery store" attitude - you break it, you pay for it.

We've broken lots of stuff and we need to fix it.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Botellines 0]

I get your point. Since apparently no one disagree with the fact that Spanish citizens didn´t want to join the war and it was done against our will, and the moment to get rid of a government that does not represent you is at election time, what would you have done?
2 options:
A) we stick with the USA and the terrorist changes the free will of the majority of the spaniards
B) We do what needed to be done and appear in front of our allies as cowards.

Out of two evils, i think we chose correctly. I agree that the terrorist will think they got their way, so, yes, i expect one more terrorist attack here. When they do it and we don´t do what they want, they will have to realize that we don´t fold under pression.
By the way, ETA stoped killing only military and government people 25 years ago. Civilians are in their agenda since the beggining of the democracy.

[bch7773 0]

I know a lot of the spanish people didn't want to be in the Iraq war. But suddenly after the bombings, nearly all of them claimed they wanted out because they had never agreed with it before.
It was only AFTER the bombings that the hugely massive protests sprung up. To the rest of the world, and the terrorists, it looks like the spanish people decided they didn't want the war only AFTER the bombings.
To the average person it looks like the terrorists scared spain into leaving iraq. this may or may not be true, but it looks like the terrorists won a victory.

MB 3528, RB 1182

[Botellines 0]

You are wrong. Sorry it is in Spanish, but look at the date. this newspaper is "right wing" so it says there was only 800.000 people, but there was at least 4 times as much.

http://www.el-mundo.es/elmundo/2003/02/15/internacional/1045327901.html

[rhino 0]

A whopping 1300 troops from Spain.. Big freaking deal..

Not even a bump in the road and yet another example of how the media is egging this whole thing on..

Rhino

[Gawain 0]

Quote

Do I have to point out to everyone once again that the public of a democratic country, Spain, was overwhelmingly against participation in the war in Iraq before the recent train bombings and the recent OBL European truce tape...? How is it succumbing when you follow through with the wishes that your citizens have held from the beginning? Untimely for your, maybe our, aspirations but in no way did they succumb.

First: Spain is not a democracy. Nice try.

Second: Once they commited troops they have now failed to follow through on that commitment.

Third: Al-Qaeda has accomplished two things with the March 11 bombings - They have forced a change in government, and a change in policy - that will embolden them.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[jakee 1,596]

Quote

First: Spain is not a democracy. Nice try.

And you think the US is? (see the electoral college)

Yes the bombings did precipitate a change in government but that may have as much to do with the ruling party's public reaction to those bombings as the actual terrorist act itself.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Gawain 0]

Quote

Quote

First: Spain is not a democracy. Nice try.

And you think the US is? (see the electoral college)

There is not a single post I've made here where I've stated that the US is a democracy (in fact, I remind many here that we aren't). However, the framework of a Federal Republic (US) allows for a far better "democratic tradition" than a Constitutional Monarchy (Spain).

Quote

Yes the bombings did precipitate a change in government but that may have as much to do with the ruling party's public reaction to those bombings as the actual terrorist act itself.

The Popular Party was enjoying a fair amount of approval prior to the bombing. Unfortunately, Spain will be the first country to learn that there is no "neutral" territory with Al Qaeda. Spain has accepted the "truce terms". Those that are striving for "neutrality" are going to pay the highest price. Zapatero is trying not to shoulder any responsibility.

Face it, in terms of "qualitative" effect, March 11th put a country to sleep, compared to September 11th.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[jakee 1,596]

Quote

There is not a single post I've made here where I've stated that the US is a democracy

Just checking.

Quote

Face it, in terms of "qualitative" effect, March 11th put a country to sleep, compared to September 11th.

But put in terms of the international policies/stance of said countries before and after the fact, the International political background in each instance, the relative political importance of each country on the world stage, the leanings of each countries populace before the attacks, the scale and visibility of the attacks themselves.
It is very difficult to compare the two attacks and responses at face value.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[benny 0]

Quote

First: Spain is not a democracy. Nice try.

Second: Once they commited troops they have now failed to follow through on that commitment.

Third: Al-Qaeda has accomplished two things with the March 11 bombings - They have forced a change in government, and a change in policy - that will embolden them.

First, in the truest sense of the word the United States of America is not a Democracy either. And Iraq will never be a democracy either, we'll never let that happen. But the truth of the matter is that the people have a voice in governmental policy making in Spain as can be since in the post election policies of the new government. But this is what the Spanish wanted all along, before and after the tapes and bombing. So, it's simply the natural progression of a government molding to the demands of its people.

Second, I'm not sure exactly what the terms of the arrangement were but at what point exactly would it be ok for them to pull-out, when we decide?

Third, the people of Spain were angry at their former government for taking them to Iraq and they responded accordingly at the polls. The appearance is unfortunate and the bombings and tape were most likely planned entirely due to the fact of the appearance they'd have.

Of course it's all about symbolism but don't call Spain pussies or traders for doing what they wanted to do all along. Thank them for the assistance they have given, ask them to still hold up financially maybe, and wish them luck.

Al Quaeda's the enemy. Get it straight, these people are our friends and if push came to shove and the shit really hit the fan, they be in it with us. But like somebody said before, wasn't it only like 1200 troops anyway? Once again, appearances, like "our coalition's really big, really." So, let it go, and spread the word that the people did what they wanted all along in Spain and that the terrorists had no effect.

They want you to think they had that effect. It adds fuel to the flame.

Never go to a DZ strip show.

[mikkey 0]

Quote

First: Spain is not a democracy. Nice try.

Could you enlighten people why Spain is not a democracy? (I am really looking forward to your answer as you seem to be very well informed - some time ago you told us that Australia was ruled by the UK)

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[mikkey 0]

Quote

Like I said, Bitch slapped, turned around, bent over, and made to squeal like a pig.

This is why a lot of people don't like Americans - especially in Europe. BTW it would then be fair to say that the US is Saudi Arabia's Bitch? They support Al Qaeda and you still bent over for the oil....

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[jakee 1,596]

Being pedantic there really are no true democracies. We elect people to make decisions for us in varying degrees of democratic process, first past the post, electoral college, proportional representation etc.

But saying that Spain is less democratic than the US because of the presence of a constitutional monarchy is slightly odd.

Quote

Australia was ruled by the UK

Ouch, I won't repeat that to any ozzies I know, they'll just remind me of the last ashes series

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[mikkey 0]

Good post. The point is that most reasonable people define democracy as being a system where the people through free elections choose their Government and where freedom of expression and political association is guaranteed by the constitution.

Trying to make the point that a country is not democratic if it does not ask all its citizens to decide every question (the original Greek concept behind the word democracy) – is stupid in a discussion like this.

Also, having a constitutional monarchy does not mean you don’t have a democracy. The Scandinavians, Dutch and the UK have very robust democracies I would think.

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[sdgregory 0]

Quote

Trying to make the point that a country is not democratic if it does not ask all its citizens to decide every question (the original Greek concept behind the word democracy) – is stupid in a discussion like this.

Actually it is not. See most people still hold to the Greek definition of democracy and are under the mistaken impression that they live in one. They forget that (like in the U.S.) they live in a Republic with a Representative Government and that many decisions are out of their hands. They think they run the goverment because they think they live in a "Democracy".

I think people would be a lot more careful how they voted if they truly understood what the framework of their government was. To be mistaken about how your government works is to be doomed to make bad decisions that may cause a loss of those rights you mention in your post.

I think proeper definition of terms and proper understanding is VERY important in a discussion like this.

[mikkey 0]

Quote

Actually it is not. See most people still hold to the Greek definition of democracy and are under the mistaken impression that they live in one. They forget that (like in the U.S.) they live in a Republic with a Representative Government and that many decisions are out of their hands. They think they run the goverment because they think they live in a "Democracy".

The term "representative democracy" is quite accepted and when people talk about democracies they talk about a system where the people elect their government. We can have a long philosophical discussion about what democracy is and which type of representation has most merit but that is off topic. I reacted to a statement that was really inferring that Spain is not as democratic then other western countries and that is definitely not true.

Quote

I think people would be a lot more careful how they voted if they truly understood what the framework of their government was. To be mistaken about how your government works is to be doomed to make bad decisions that may cause a loss of those rights you mention in your post.

Agree, good point.

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[Michele 1]

Irrespective of whether Spain should've been in Iraq, does anyone really think that AQ does NOT think that they influenced the pull out, and believe that if they just bomb some more countries' transportation systems (or other infrastructure) that they won't have an effect on elections?

Anyone really think AQ isn't going to be thinking "yeah! This works! Let's do it again...."?

Anyone really think that AQ is paying attention to the fact that Spain's constituency didn't want to be in Iraq, and said, "well, they're oppressed just like us, so it was not our actions which caused the change, just a really smart new administration?"

Furthermore, wasn't the election in Spain going to the other guy until the bombing hit? Unless, of course, polls are incorrect.......just another log on the fire AQ has been warming their hands in. That perception is what matters.

See, it doesn't matter, at this junction, whether or not Spain is a democracy, republic, or constitutional monarchy. That's definitional, and has no real bearing on AQ's opinion of the situation.

Prediction....

In something like 90 days, the "truce"/blackmail is up. Italy has rejected it...the UK has rejected it, and I believe several other countries have done so, as well. So, when that time frame passes, AQ can say "we warned you. Payback time", and there will be attacks on those countries in short order.

Further, as they've seen (or "perceived", perhaps) that bombing works, watch the Athens Olympics (nicely occuring right after the 90 day time frame), and then of course there are the US elections...nicely set up, don't you think?

Perception is everything...

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[TheAnvil 0]

Benny and Botellines -

Al Quaeda tells Spain to get out of Iraq. Spain gets out of Iraq.

Hmm...you claim Spain hasn't succumbed...

Odd definition of succumb you have there.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[Gawain 0]

Quote

... but don't call Spain pussies or traders ...

I never called Spain a bunch of pussies or traitors. It appears however, they will fail to fulfill their commitment operationally. This will severely compromise their ability to "fight terror" politically (one strike against them already), and economically.

This will have an isolating affect, it's unavoidable.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Gawain 0]

Quote

Quote

First: Spain is not a democracy. Nice try.

Could you enlighten people why Spain is not a democracy? (I am really looking forward to your answer as you seem to be very well informed - some time ago you told us that Australia was ruled by the UK)

Sorry, I made a mistake, Spain is a Parliamentary Monarchy (not a constitutional monarchy as I previously posted). Spain's Chief of State is King Juan Carlos I. The head of government is the Prime Minister. Do I need to offer a further explanation?

I understand Australia is a federal state system, which still recognizes the British Monarch as sovereign (and thus, Chief of State), and the head of governement being Prime Minister John Howard. I don't recall saying that Australia is "ruled" by the UK, but Australia does note Queen Elizabeth II as Chief of State. She is represented by Governor General-Maj. Gen. Michael Jeffrey (ret).

That is why Australia, Spain, UK, Netherlands, etc. have Prime Ministers as "heads of government" and France, USA, Germany, Portugal have Presidents as their "Chiefs of State".

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Gravitymaster 0]

Question:

In light of Spains pull-out of troops in Iraq and considering the possible consequence of other countries doing the same when Al Qaeda surely commits acts of terrorism against them. And also considering the fact that most other countries troop commitments are relatively symbolic, Is it time for the U.S. to go it alone in Iraq?

[Gawain 0]

Quote

In light of Spains pull-out of troops in Iraq and considering the possible consequence of other countries doing the same when Al Qaeda surely commits acts of terrorism against them. And also considering the fact that most other countries troop commitments are relitively symbolic, Is it time for the U.S. to go it alone in Iraq?

That has to be a contingency that's been talked about. What concerns me is how Spain (along with UK, France, Germay, etc) quickly rebuffed the "bin Laden" offer of truce, only to signal immediately to withdraw troops mere days later. The red-alert for me would be to see more than one of the former eastern-bloc nations fold in the same fashion.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!