quade 4 #26 April 18, 2004 When does a tadpole become a frog?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #27 April 18, 2004 Exactly....so in the absence of knowledge about when "the tadpole becomes a frog", how can one ethically determine that it is ok to terminate (in reference to human beings, of course). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #28 April 18, 2004 QuoteThe idea is that if a person killed a pregnant woman and the fetus also died as a result, that person would then be charged with two murders. This all came about as a result of the Laci Peterson case, but many people believe there is another motive behind the legislation -- which would be to weaken Roe v. Wade. This has been state law in many places for years. Look at Cal. Penal Code section 187, which states "(a) Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being, or a fetus, with malice aforethought. (b) This section shall not apply to any person who commits an act that results in the death of a fetus if any of the following apply: (1) The act complied with the Therapeutic Abortion Act, Article 2 (commencing with Section 123400) of Chapter 2 of Part 2 of Division 106 of the Health and Safety Code. (2) The act was committed by a holder of a physician's and surgeon's certificate, as defined in the Business and Professions Code, in a case where, to a medical certainty, the result of childbirth would be death of the mother of the fetus or where her death from childbirth, although not medically certain, would be substantially certain or more likely than not. (3) The act was solicited, aided, abetted, or consented to by the mother of the fetus. (c) Subdivision (b) shall not be construed to prohibit the prosecution of any person under any other provision of law." The only thing different is that this is a FEDERAL statute. Personally, unless there is something involving state lines or navigable waters, or some other Federal Question, I don't think the feds should be involved in it. Police powers, under the Constitution, should be reserved to the States. Odds are there's a clause in it stating how the killing of fetuses "affects interstate commerce" to bring it under the Commerce Clause. As far as grandstanding, yes, this is federal grandstanding. Again, they are creating an unnecessary law to show that they are doing something. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #29 April 18, 2004 Ethics, by definition, shouldn't be legislated. That aside, let me ask you this, does each strand of DNA have its own "soul" or does a "soul" require some sort of consciousness?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #30 April 18, 2004 If I remember Biology, the tadpole is the frog, just not mature yet. The tadpole is a living thing, with individual DNA. You can't compare that to sperm vs baby.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #31 April 18, 2004 Is it ethical to murder? That's legislated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #32 April 18, 2004 You've misunderstood my point. It's only murder if it's a person. Legislation should not decide when a fetus becomes a person -- that's an ethical question.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #33 April 18, 2004 QuoteLegislation should not decide when a fetus becomes a person -- that's an ethical question. A guestion that has never been answered by any human. Yet humanity decides to not err on the side of caution. Chris _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #34 April 18, 2004 I think the point is that after the sperm fuses with the egg, you have one cell with 2 haploid strands of DNA that contains the instructions for the developing zygote. Is that a person? At what point does it become a person? When it has fingers? When it has a cerebral cortex? When it's born? (That's not a question that can be answered except through your own ethics. We have a pretty good understanding of embryology and fetal development. That's beside the point except to answer at what point in develop does such or such happen? When does it get fingers? When does it have a brain or sensory neural pathways....? Now if it's the case that an embry or fetus can only live in the environment of my body, shouldn't I have a say? My personal opinion on abortion is like many others' here. I wouldn't have one myself and I feel that it is wrong, but I don't want our lawmakers to make that decision for people who disagree with me. It's a personal decision, IMHO, that should not be legislated. Peace~ Lindsey-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #35 April 18, 2004 I could have sworn that a few years after Roe V Wade that the pro-abortionist changed her mind totally? Correct me if I am wrong? Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #36 April 18, 2004 You're right. She's a huge pro-life activist. Peace~ Lindsey QuoteI could have sworn that a few years after Roe V Wade that the pro-abortionist changed her mind totally? Correct me if I am wrong? Rhino-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #38 April 18, 2004 Quote If I remember Biology, the tadpole is the frog, just not mature yet. The tadpole is a living thing, with individual DNA. You can't compare that to sperm vs baby. I didn't. What I asked was: Quote . . . does each strand of DNA have its own "soul" or does a "soul" require some sort of consciousness? Since an individual sperm cell does not contain all of the chromosomes required to become a human -- it does not apply to my question. That said, there are millions of cells in a human body that do contain enough material to become entire humans. If I isolate ONE of them and clone it several times, is that a human or does it only become a human after gaining some sort of conciousness -- for the sake of this argument, let's call it brainwaves beyond just those required to sustain life . Maybe you won't agree with me on this point, but we declare people as being "brain dead" all the time. Clearly just the functioning of a heart isn't enough to be "life" since we also have numerous people "alive" now who's hearts have stopped for quite some time, so since higher brain functioning is what we use as a standard for the end of life -- shouldn't it also be used for the start of life?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #39 April 18, 2004 Quoteso since higher brain functioning is what we use as a standard for the end of life -- shouldn't it also be used for the start of life? How about the time at which one can feel pain.....Or comfort..... Or the moment ONE brain cell is formed? Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,595 #40 April 18, 2004 Oh shite, this isn't what I wanted to get into. Ummm, does any one actually know if manslaughter, such as the car accident I mentioned earlier gets covered in this act?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #41 April 18, 2004 Dogs feel pain and comfort. Lindsey-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #42 April 18, 2004 Ok, pain and comfort could -also- be a definition if you'd like. However, in either case, it still requires more than just a few cells. We get into a funky world of definitions though when we talk about pain or comfort. Does an amoeba feel pain? I chose the amoeba since it's only composed of a single cell and does react to stimulus, but is that really the same things as pain? Philosophers for many years have tried to answer that one. Descartes said that even higher life forms such as dogs and monkeys don't feel "pain" the way they we do. I tend to disagree, but somewhere between the amoeba and us lays the point at which stimulus ends and pain begins. I don't know where that point is. And if we use that as our standard for the beginning of human life -- I'm not sure we're able to answer the question. Me -- I like the brainwave model since, as I said before, we use that as the standard for the end of life.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,595 #43 April 18, 2004 Are you a vegetarian?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #44 April 18, 2004 QuoteAre you a vegetarian? No WAY! I'm a South Arkansas girl. We eat our OWN cows and pigs and chickens. We grow our own (ahem veggies). Peace~ Lindsey-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #45 April 18, 2004 And I've never put a dog to sleep either.. funny... We are talking about human beings here.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,595 #46 April 18, 2004 Replied to the wrong person, damn this scrumpy killing brain cells. Still though I would like to know how wide ranging this bill is when it comes to accidental death.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #47 April 18, 2004 Hell....I don't know....I just got sucked in by all this right to choose/right to life talk.... Peas~ Lindsey-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #48 April 18, 2004 Quote Still though I would like to know how wide ranging this bill is when it comes to accidental death. Isn't there some language . . . about the person committing the crime having known or should have known about the prenancy? So, I'm not really sure if it's going to apply in, say, a vehicular manslaughter case. Might be interesting in a rollercoaster accident depending on how pregnant the person looked at the time. Only time will tell and since it hasn't been tested in court yet, there's no way of really knowing until then.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,595 #49 April 18, 2004 Quote`(B) An offense under this section DOES NOT require proof that-- `(i) the person engaging in the conduct had knowledge or should have had knowledge that the victim of the underlying offense was pregnant; or `(ii) the defendant intended to cause the death of, or bodily injury to, the unborn child It then goes on to quote a whole range of provisions under law that this part of the bill applies to, since they are refered to by number I have absolutely no idea what they are.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #50 April 18, 2004 Ooooooo . . . does NOT require proof . . . well, that's a freekin' can o' worms ain't it! Serves me right for not looking it up again.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
