Gawain 0 #26 April 14, 2004 QuoteQuote What mistakes do you want him to admit to? Seriously? At this point almost anything. Yeah, nothing like adding a little blood to the water. If he did (and he won't), it still wouldn't be enough. So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #27 April 14, 2004 Well, here's the deal . . . about 50% of the country thinks he's a pretty nice guy. Just like their next door neighbor or the guy they sit next to at the NASCAR race. The other about 50% thinks he's an arrogant SOB. Doesn't give a rats ass about anything other than is what is good for him and his wealthy buddies. Seriously, those are the numbers. Both sides are wrong, by the way. Anyway, it's not about being contrite, it's about being humble and admitting he's not perfect. Nobody is perfect. He'll -sort of- admit to that in a round about way, but won't come out and actually give even the smallest example. Yes, yes, I'm quite certain he knows exactly what mistakes he's made and I'm also certain some of them have kept him up at night. He's the freekin' President! That's just the way it works. He has a very serious job and as a result, like it or not, people die because of their mistakes. Kennedy is remembered (by most people at least) as one of the greatest Presidents of all time. He made a -huge- mistake with the Bay of Pigs, admitted it and moved on.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #28 April 14, 2004 QuoteWell, here's the deal . . . about 50% of the country thinks he's a pretty nice guy. Just like their next door neighbor or the guy they sit next to at the NASCAR race. The other about 50% thinks he's an arrogant SOB. Doesn't give a rats ass about anything other than is what is good for him and his wealthy buddies. Seriously, those are the numbers. Both sides are wrong, by the way. And take a guess at why they have that opinion of him since most have no idea what he's really like? QuoteAnyway, it's not about being contrite, it's about being humble and admitting he's not perfect. Nobody is perfect. He'll -sort of- admit to that in a round about way, but won't come out and actually give even the smallest example. Apparently my attempt to explain to you how his mind works wasn't sucessful. QuoteYes, yes, I'm quite certain he knows exactly what mistakes he's made and I'm also certain some of them have kept him up at night. He's the freekin' President! That's just the way it works. He has a very serious job and as a result, like it or not, people die because of their mistakes. True, but don't think for a moment he doesn't understand this. QuoteKennedy is remembered (by most people at least) as one of the greatest Presidents of all time. He made a -huge- mistake with the Bay of Pigs, admitted it and moved on. Again Quade, just to point out what I'm trying to say, most people I associate with don't think Kennedy was a very good President. Most think he was connected to the mob, was an adulterer, came from a family of dubious morality, and cannot find anything good about his presidency except he went against the Democratic Party at the time and sided with Republicans who supported equality for blacks. I know it's hard for the Dems to understand people like the Bushs' and Ronald Reagan and how easy it is to demonize what you don't understand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #29 April 14, 2004 QuoteSo we're spreading the will of the Almighty to the heathens who oppose our freedom. Perhaps the christians of the US see no problem with that, but I have a feeling that a lot of other religions will react to that the way we react to the word jihad. Given that religious wars have caused a lot of problems of late it seemed a poor decision to turn it into war for the christian god. I don't think Bush turned this into a religious war....He is trying to spread freedom...Maybe he screwed up with the words, but the US was founded on freedom and I don't find it strange that the US would want to pursue freedom in other parts of the world. BTW this IS a religious war....They hate us for not being them. They called for Jihad...That makes it a religious war even if we don't fight for a God..They already are. As for the speech...Well I think he bumbled some parts of it. Like every other political speech it really never answered the questions. I know that he was told not to admit he made a mistake...The Dems would kill him for admitting that he was wrong. I was not impressed with all his answers. However, I do believe the man is sincere. I still plan on voting for him...I don't trust Kerry the wannabe Kennedy. As for Bush's speaking...Well Clinton was a better SPEAKER, but less of an honest man. I'd rather have a guy I trust that is not silky smooth as a speaker, than a great speaker that is doggy. (Here I go bringing Hitler up) Hitler was a GREAT speaker, but a crappy person. Being a good speaker is not what I look at for a leader...I look for a leader. Bush is a leader."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflybella 0 #30 April 14, 2004 You mean this speech? Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taylor610 0 #31 April 14, 2004 Thank You Ron! GWB has been a great leader in this time of terrorism. We, America and Americans are under attack. Here in our own country and abroad. We need a "leader". GWB is that. His interest are what is best for this great nation of ours. He is a God fearing man who speaks openly about his Christian beliefs and repeatedly gets beaten up for it. I respect him for his decisions, tough as they are, right or wrong, decisions that someone had to make. I am personally glad it is George W. Bush making those decisions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #32 April 14, 2004 QuoteI didn't get to see all of it -- only his speech and the first several questions. I actually started to feel a little sorry for him, however in what I did see, the man simply could not admit he made any mistakes. The NBC reporter asked him flat out and GWB hemmed and hawwed and he just couldn't do it. People like to say that GWB is sticks to his guns -- and clearly he does -- but at some point don't you have to admit nobody can be 100 percent right all of the time? Did you watch the whole thing? In responce to a question about mistakes. ". . .Have I made mistakes, I am confident that I have." It would seem that that would be an admission to me.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #33 April 14, 2004 Quote And take a guess at why they have that opinion of him since most have no idea what he's really like? I don't have to guess. I understand how the PR/News/Spin Machine system works at the component level. Quote Apparently my attempt to explain to you how his mind works wasn't sucessful. I might also suggest to you that if anyone thinks they -know- how any one individual's mind works, then they're only fooling themselves. Let me suggest to you that it's impossible to know even what a spouce is thinking, let alone someone as removed as the President of the United States is from you or I. Quote True, but don't think for a moment he doesn't understand this. I believe I stated I do believe he knows he's made mistakes. I think we're both in agreement there since he has said as much -- just hasn't been specific. As for Kennedy and the opinion of him that -most- people carry of him . . . here are the numbers from a poll taken before too much furor got whipped up over September 11 which I think is important from a perspective point of view. The opinion of people became -far- too polarized after that time to really make much historical sense. However, I think even in most post-9/11 polls you'll find that JFK is usually in the number two slot following Lincoln. http://www.clovisnews.com/trails/greatest.htmlquade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #34 April 14, 2004 QuoteI would have dearly loved to watch every second of it -- seriously. I think you all know what a political junkie I am and I live to watch the speeches in particular. TiVo? ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckbrown 0 #35 April 14, 2004 QuoteHow about the Six-Day War or the Yom Kippur wars? (all Israeli) Why do you have "all Israeli" in parentheses? Are you suggesting that these wars were started by the Israeli's? The Israelis didn't start either of these wars, but they finished them by destroying the armed forces of the attacking nations. As for Iraq we are not killing those who "dislike" us, we are killing those who attack us. They won't die if they lay down their weapons. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #36 April 14, 2004 I thought he was honest and sincere in the speech. Most of what I saw was the Q&A and it was pretty gross the fishing expedition for ammo for Nov. The question about "mistakes" and the woman who asked if he'd continue policy to "even if he would lose his job", and the question about the current coalition not carrying their fair share because they field fewer troops (that last one was a slap in the face to those nations who are doing what they think in right) was clearly out of hand and straight from the DFL. He handled that gracefully - with the point that mistakes were likely made but he believed the decisions he made from the perspective of those moments were the best he could do. I believe that. GWB was hoping to speak to what what going on now and soon rather than continue this witchhunt. 1 - biggest mistake - from the rather large list of reasons to invade Iraq, GWB used as primary the failure of Iraq to comply to the UN resolution concerning WMDs - in discussions with the UN. I guess that's silly to use a violation of UN resolution to justify UN support of that same resolution(s). But the mistake was not being vocal enough about all the other reasons. (Hindsight) it would have prudent to provide the full matrix and indicate which were sufficient solely to invade and which were justifiable only when considered with the others. But this is a mistake of presentation, not content (I know, I know, for those politically obsessed, you equate presentation with content so I'm sure you'd also say this is justification for impeachment) 2 - he needed a haircut ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #37 April 14, 2004 QuoteSo, even though he -knows- it is one of the greatest criticisms about him and it's more than likely something that was practiced in the mock press conferences . . . he still won't actually admit to a actual instance of making a mistake. You know politics...If he said he made a mistake that would be the Dems campain poster. To say "I made a mistake" or "Iwas wrong" would kill him politically...And you know it. You don't hear Kerry saying "Yeah, I changed my mind" either."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GARYC24 3 #38 April 14, 2004 I thought he answered all the question like a president should have. I noticed he showed very good memory of lengthy 2-part questions, and answered them. I have to admit that some of the topics brought up, made me think of ..Wow..we live in a world now that these things are being addressed.. depressing, confusing, saddening, sickening Also..I believe this is possibly and one would not be 100% wrong to call this a "Religious War" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #39 April 14, 2004 QuoteAs for Iraq we are not killing those who "dislike" us, we are killing those who attack us. They won't die if they lay down their weapons. I am not drawing any lines, but a violent dictator could easily us ethat same line to justify killing some political opponents. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
outrager 6 #40 April 14, 2004 QuoteSo what did you think? He looked like a retarded child failing an exam. An IQ of a watermellon. Stupid and stubborn. I find it sad but quite understandabe that a large chunk of US electorate, including many skydivers here, relates to him so well. bsbd! Yuri. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #41 April 14, 2004 QuoteI might also suggest to you that if anyone thinks they -know- how any one individual's mind works, then they're only fooling themselves. Let me suggest to you that it's impossible to know even what a spouce is thinking, let alone someone as removed as the President of the United States is from you or I. I disagree. There are many psychologists and other people in the Intel world whos job it is to be able to quickly and accurately analyze a persons psychlogical profile. If you have ever purchased anything expensive like an automobile, with the feeling you made the decision without any manipulation, you have just met a sales person who based on a quick assesment of you, knew the best approach. This isn't something people like to admit to themselves but it is true. I know people who could spend a few hours on this site and tell you a lot about your upbringing, the relationship you had with your parents (or didn't), how well you did in school, your education level etc. Ever read "The Greatest Generation?" I would suggest it because it will give you an insight into the values of a great many of Americans. As far as knowing whats in the mind of a spouse. I would say those who are surprised by a spouse's behavior probably had a clue but ignored it. QuoteI believe I stated I do believe he knows he's made mistakes. I think we're both in agreement there since he has said as much -- just hasn't been specific. And he won't for the reasons mentioned, so don't hold your breath. QuoteHowever, I think even in most post-9/11 polls you'll find that JFK is usually in the number two slot following Lincoln. In evaluating the greatness of a person, I always ask "What did he/she do that was great and what about them wasn't so great. Personally, I don't find Kennedy to be such a great person or President. My guess is if you asked the people in the poll to neme 5 great accomplishments of the Kennedy Presidency, they would have problems naming more than 3. So again, where does the preception come from? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,107 #42 April 14, 2004 >I don't think Bush turned this into a religious war....He is trying to >spread freedom...Maybe he screwed up with the words, but the US > was founded on freedom and I don't find it strange that the US > would want to pursue freedom in other parts of the world. I fear that he did not screw up the words - it's not like he meant to say "dog" and said "god" instead. I think he really truly feels that god wants him to do it. He's said as much before. An infallible leader who follows god's orders and spreads his word? Suppose you heard about an Islamic leader who never admits to mistakes, listens to Allah, and is determined to bring Allah's freedoms to the US? Would you be worried or not? It's an issue because what he says isn't just heard by americans. It's heard all over the world. And a few families in Iraq may have just heard that speech and come to the conclusion that they _do_ have to fight to protect their Islamic way of life. And that means more dead soldiers. >BTW this IS a religious war....They hate us for not being them. I think it's pretty clear that they hate us for killing them. You know, the same reason you hate Al Qaeda. Do you hate them because they are Muslim, or do you hate them because they killed 3000 americans? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,107 #43 April 14, 2004 >Why do you have "all Israeli" in parentheses? Are you suggesting > that these wars were started by the Israeli's? No, they all involved the Israelis. >As for Iraq we are not killing those who "dislike" us, we are killing >those who attack us. They won't die if they lay down their weapons. We've killed 9000 innocent people in Iraq so far who have done nothing but have the misfortune to be in front of a bullet or under a bomb. Innocent people _do_ die during wars, and their families become tomorrow's 9/11 hijackers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #44 April 14, 2004 *** We've killed 9000 innocent people in Iraq so far who have done nothing but have the misfortune to be in front of a bullet or under a bomb. Innocent people _do_ die during wars, and their families become tomorrow's 9/11 hijackers.*** Odd that no American hijackers have been seen then. Or Israeli hijackers. Or Bali hijackers. These people are not pre-ordained to become tomorrow's hijackers - 'tis the environs in which such people are raised that will determine if they become hijackers or not (among many other varaiables).Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #45 April 14, 2004 QuoteI think he really truly feels that god wants him to do it. He's said as much before. An infallible leader who follows god's orders and spreads his word? Suppose you heard about an Islamic leader who never admits to mistakes, listens to Allah, and is determined to bring Allah's freedoms to the US? Would you be worried or not? None of this really matters since we are already engaged in a religious war. Even if the US was not doing it for Jesus, many Muslims are doing it for Allah. If I go and walk up to a black guy and hit him just cause he is black...Even if he did nothing it's still a hate crime. We are in a religious war...Even if we didn't think it, it would not matter..They do. QuoteI think he really truly feels that god wants him to do it. He's said as much before. I know several leaders that leaned upon faith in times of hardship. From the number #2 president according to Quade's page: Quote“Fourscore and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. "We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this." “But, in a larger sense, we cannot dedicate—we cannot consecrate—we cannot hallow—this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.” Or #2 most popular many years: JFK's Inaugral speech Jan 20, 1961: Quote We observe today not a victory of party but a celebration of freedom--symbolizing an end as well as a beginning--signifying renewal as well as change. For I have sworn before you and Almighty God the same solemn oath our forbears prescribed nearly a century and three-quarters ago. The world is very different now. For man holds in his mortal hands the power to abolish all forms of human poverty and all forms of human life. And yet the same revolutionary beliefs for which our forebears fought are still at issue around the globe--the belief that the rights of man come not from the generosity of the state but from the hand of God...... (Just a little something of interst from it..not God oriented) ....To those people in the huts and villages of half the globe struggling to break the bonds of mass misery, we pledge our best efforts to help them help themselves, for whatever period is required--not because the communists may be doing it, not because we seek their votes, but because it is right. If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich..... .... Finally, whether you are citizens of America or citizens of the world, ask of us here the same high standards of strength and sacrifice which we ask of you. With a good conscience our only sure reward, with history the final judge of our deeds, let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God's work must truly be our own. Gee the top Presidents all lean on God. QuoteI think it's pretty clear that they hate us for killing them. You know, the same reason you hate Al Qaeda. Do you hate them because they are Muslim, or do you hate them because they killed 3000 americans? They hate us casue we are not Muslim. I hate no man, but I am not going to let a man kill me or my friends, invade or wage war against my country. (Well OK, I hate 100 jump wonders) The fastest way to become my enemy...Declare I am yours, and wish to do me harm."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckbrown 0 #46 April 14, 2004 Quote We've killed 9000 innocent people in Iraq so far who have done nothing but have the misfortune to be in front of a bullet or under a bomb. Innocent people _do_ die during wars, and their families become tomorrow's 9/11 hijackers. Let's see I've had family members KIA, WIA and others spend the rest of their lives in and out of the funny farm because of serving in combat in the military. I don't want to go and blow up Japan, Germany or Vietnam. By the same token the 9/11 hijackers didn't come from families harmed by the US, it was quite the opposite; most were well educated and none had a history of any "wrongs" perpetrated on them or their families by the US (unless you consider the Saudis allowing us to use their bases during the first Gulf War a "wrong"). They came after us because they were a bunch of f***ing religious nutcases. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
benny 0 #47 April 14, 2004 Quote*** We've killed 9000 innocent people in Iraq so far who have done nothing but have the misfortune to be in front of a bullet or under a bomb. Innocent people _do_ die during wars, and their families become tomorrow's 9/11 hijackers.*** Odd that no American hijackers have been seen then. Or Israeli hijackers. Or Bali hijackers. These people are not pre-ordained to become tomorrow's hijackers - 'tis the environs in which such people are raised that will determine if they become hijackers or not (among many other varaiables). Well lets just remember once again that terrorism is in no way ethnicity or religion specific. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols anyone? Theodore Kaczinkski? The name escapes me but Yitzkh Rabin's killer was a Jew who wanted to stop Rabin's peace efforts. Everybody's got their bad apples, don't go getting all holy on us, Americans and christians have done bad things too. Never go to a DZ strip show. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,107 #48 April 14, 2004 >Odd that no American hijackers have been seen then. Americans who wish with all their heart to fight against Al Qaeda are free to join our military. No such option exists for the Palestinians. (And of course you know that there have been american hijackers, just no hijackers who want to kill people on the ground.) >These people are not pre-ordained to become tomorrow's hijackers - > 'tis the environs in which such people are raised that will determine > if they become hijackers or not (among many other varaiables). I agree. And if the environment they live in shows that US troops do little but kill their friends and families, that will be a powerful factor in their development. If you were in the same situation it would be a powerful factor in yours. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #49 April 14, 2004 QuoteI agree. And if the environment they live in shows that US troops do little but kill their friends and families, that will be a powerful factor in their development. If you were in the same situation it would be a powerful factor in yours. Muslims killed people on 9-11...I don't hate Muslims....I hate Muslims that want to do harm to me or my friends...But I hate Christians that want to hurt me or my friends as well.."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #50 April 14, 2004 QuoteNo such option exists for the Palestinians. There is no Palestine. Quote And if the environment they live in shows that US troops do little but kill their friends and families, that will be a powerful factor in their development. If you were in the same situation it would be a powerful factor in yours. Of course it would. Your inference that all Iraqi civilians see US troops doing is killing their friends and families is lost on those of us who have friends & family actually in Iraq right now. They see US troops providing medical care, restoring water and power, arresting thugs (and shooting them), and doing many many other good things - daily. This bad press is EXACTLY what our terrorist enemies should like to see. Since many in the media seem so keen on this inane Vietnam-Iraq comparison, here's a non-inane analogy for them that is definitely true: the media hurt the US war effort in Vietnam with its biased coverage; it's hurting the US war effort against terror with its biased coverage. That's a FAR more tenable argument and the ones they've previously presented. Perhaps they'll run with that. I doubt it.Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites